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Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

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Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#861

Post by jlarocco »

Ferret7446 wrote: post #544
jlarocco wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logical extreme there is legalizing murder for hire, human trafficking, and a bunch of other crazy stuff. Privacy is in a different category altogether, but there's more to think about than just how much things cost companies.

That's a straight up slippery slope logical fallacy.

That's technically true, but I was using it to prove my point that there's more to think about than company profits.

Maybe I should have used dumping waste in a river and paying workers below minimum wage as examples. Profits could go up, but most people would agree it should still be illegal.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#862

Post by ekjhgkejhgk »

int_19h wrote: post #546
ekjhgkejhgk wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Stuff like e.g. ChatControl is also regulations, so no, it doesn't follow at all. If in practice the people doing the regulating don't have your interests in mind, more regulations is indeed bad.

I didn't say

"it's a regulation therefore it's good"

I said

"saying 'it's regulation therefore it's bad' is something bootlickers do"

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#863

Post by mortarion »

m00dy wrote: post #13
bpodgursky wrote: post #7

> The EU folds under Big Tech’s pressure. This is a very odd framing, because the actual reason from quotes in the article is that the EU is acutely feeling the pain of having no big tech companies , due in part to burdensome privacy regulations. The pressure isn't really from big tech, it's from feeling poor and setting themselves up as irrelevant consumers of an economy permeated by AI.

europe got stuck in the old world, they will never have tech companies.

We have plenty of tech companies. The reason you've not heard about them is because most of them cater to their domestic market first. Neighbors second. Rest of the world third or never.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#864

Post by mortarion »

sMarsIntruder wrote: post #602
l5870uoo9y wrote: post #312

The fundamental problem in Europe is the perception that companies are inherently ill-intentioned, requiring micro-management through massive bureaucracy. It is a moralising and irresponsible attitude that older people can afford to adopt, but like so many other things, it hits younger generations mercilessly hard.

This is a general approach applied also to the population. In Europe there is a particular concept of freedom.

Like the old adage goes. In the USA you have freedom for things. In Europe you have freedom from things.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#865

Post by kryptoncalm »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #853
epolanski wrote: post #828

I'm not understanding, as an European who's been part of multiple startups how's that supposed to boost growth. There's literally 0 startups I've been part of where data protection laws or even the infamous cookie banners have been anywhere near relevant (unless your business was literally profiling). In fact the actors that most opposed those laws have always been non Europeans. Sure, there is an attached cost in ha…

The biggest hurdle Europe has to face is the cultural shift away from the post-soviet era of "Don't take work too seriously, enjoy life". There is now a full generation of Europeans who grew up in with this mentality, looking down on Americans for their ridiculous work ethic and comparatively meager benefits. But it's not sustainable, and the strain is already becoming obvious. Young Europeans will have to work longe…

The data [0] begs to differ: in richer countries workers and fewer hours. The gap not shown here is working hours per capita (instead of worker), but I couldn’t find that data quickly.

Also, even if your claim were true, I wonder if joining the rate race of working harder is worth it.

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/rich-poor-working-hours

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#866

Post by dbg31415 »

I work right at the junction of marketing tech -- eCommerce, marketing sites, account management systems. Theoretically I should be living in compliance hell, but here's the dirty secret:

To "follow" every rule, all you really need is another layer of UX friction. Another modal. Another "consent wizard." A few toggles buried under Manage Settings → Advanced → Optional → Something You'll Never Click → Opt Me Out.

If you want to be sneaky, add a dark pattern. Make "yes" mean "no." Delay the buttons loading behind some animation, while showing other buttons from the start. (Users will always mash the first one that looks vaguely like "close" without reading anything.)

Or just bribe them, "Get 200 extra points for opting in! Only 45,000 more to redeem a free small drink!" Congratulations -- you're now "compliant.

In practice, GDPR mostly results in one more click. That's the whole impact. A seemingly smart privacy law reduced to just an annoyance tax.

(This is a big reason I run Firefox with uBlock Origin, and NextDNS on my router and phone, with Steven Black's block list. Ha. I do value my privacy, and the more ads and trackers you can block the better shot you'll have at keeping some of it. At least until you go and do something stupid like join a social network or messenger app, or start clicking accept to get 200 extra points.)

* StevenBlack/hosts: Consolidating and extending hosts files from several well-curated sources. Optionally pick extensions for porn, social media, and other categories. // https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts

* NextDNS - The new firewall for the modern Internet // https://nextdns.io/

* uBlock Origin – Get this Extension for Firefox (en-US) // https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-origin...

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#867

Post by kubb »

meowface wrote: post #860
matthewdgreen wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations don’t outsource critical national security industries even though economists might say that’s more efficient. The question is whether they should outsource critical tech infrastructure to huge quasi-monopolistic US firms that can turn it off or abuse European data at will. I don’t have the answer to that question, but I have to imagine it’s a worthwhile debate. The data we have cuts both ways: China applied p…

>China applied protectionist policies to its own Internet companies, and it’s hard to argue that this has been economically devastating for them. China has 1.4 billion people in one country while the combined population of Europe is around half of that, so that's one difference. But, yes, both US and Chinese technology companies would likely be better off than they are now without China's protectionism and authoritar…

Disagree. China has had incredible benefits from its own social media and commerce platform growth.

Yeah, the US is missing out.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#868

Post by saubeidl »

mortarion wrote: post #859
zoobab wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU should pass a Foreign Lobbying Ban Act. For example, if you are a french company with american shareholders, you can't lobby the EU.

They can't pass an act like that. USA would retaliate economically.

Why can't we counter-retaliate? Where are our cojones?

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#869

Post by evrenesat »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #853
epolanski wrote: post #828

I'm not understanding, as an European who's been part of multiple startups how's that supposed to boost growth. There's literally 0 startups I've been part of where data protection laws or even the infamous cookie banners have been anywhere near relevant (unless your business was literally profiling). In fact the actors that most opposed those laws have always been non Europeans. Sure, there is an attached cost in ha…

The biggest hurdle Europe has to face is the cultural shift away from the post-soviet era of "Don't take work too seriously, enjoy life". There is now a full generation of Europeans who grew up in with this mentality, looking down on Americans for their ridiculous work ethic and comparatively meager benefits. But it's not sustainable, and the strain is already becoming obvious. Young Europeans will have to work longe…

IMHO, the US and China’s hurry to expand into every possible corner is unsustainable. Unless we are actually trying to get ready to face an extraterrestrial threat, our endless effort to maximize our tech and become more and more efficient and profitable is unneeded and puts too much stress on earthlings, which is definitely not sustainable. Do you really believe that when we are able to pass production of almost anything to AI and robots and give generous UBI to each and every person, they will be happy and satisfied? It is a dead end, a loss of meaning that we are racing to reach ASAP.

Population collapse cannot be a good enough reason, either. Older people won't be happier if their servants are robots instead of climate migrants.

Re: Europe is scaling back GDPR and relaxing AI laws

#870

Post by lo_zamoyski »

rapnie wrote: post #438
lo_zamoyski wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is that everyone else is pursuing tech unhindered by such regulations at breakneck speed, and Europeans realize that Europe - once the center of science and technology - is increasingly sliding into a backwater in this space and an open air museum. Now, some will agree with you and say that privacy should never be violated, but nonetheless accept a certain measure of tolerance toward that kind of violatio…

> sliding into a backwater in this space and an open air museum Or a place that follows a different approach than "break it to make it" mad dash, that fosters a different - perhaps richer - culture with tech more aligned to people's needs, and overall healthier to live in. If there is a good set of regulations in place. And that is where EU is not consistent, and this backtracking not helpful.

> a place that follows a different approach than "break it to make it" mad dash

You don't have to convince me of the foolishness of mad dashes. Or the emptiness of consumerist culture. But is the EU not consumerist? Does it even have any viable or good ideas about alternatives? Without consumerism, the modern world doesn't know what to do with itself. It has no other modus vivendi. Consumption is all it knows.

> a different - perhaps richer - culture with tech more aligned to people's needs, and overall healthier to live in.

Sounds great, and I do not contest these as aspirations. And economies are supposed to serve the objective good of human beings. But is the EU on the path of greater cultural richness, or one of cultural decadence?

> If there is a good set of regulations in place. And that is where EU is not consistent

Bingo. What is good regulation, not as just an expression of principle and aspiration, but as a matter of practicality and prudence in the given circumstances?

It also takes more than good regulation as well. You have to ask: what does it take - and that's possible within morally licit limits - to encourage a richer culture, a culture that is also more conducive to health, and a tech industry that serves the human good? Is the EU succeeding, or merely stagnating and reacting defensively (for better or worse) to the changing conditions of the world?

Some things are only possible in vibrant economies, and where tech is concerned, the EU is not exactly vibrant.

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