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PHP 8.5

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Re: PHP 8.5

#71

Post by pjmlp »

deaddodo wrote: post #52
pjmlp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for most languages though, compare C# 14 with C# 1.0, Java 25 with Java 1.0, C 23 (plus common compiler extensions) with K&R C,....

C hasn’t changed all that much, and someone who coded in C99 would take about 30mins to catch up to a modern C23 codebase’s changes. Famously so, as conservatism to change is the main friction in the community for about two decades now. If you pull out examples of the earliest C, sure, it looks weird . But that C was already obsolete in 1989. Since then, it’s had a minor iteration (e.g. five-eight additions/modificat…

I am quite sure many people would fail Pub Quizzes related to C, when taking into account the whole language alongside compiler extensions, regardless of the compiler.

Re: PHP 8.5

#72

Post by nalekberov »

mikedelfino wrote: post #64
nalekberov wrote: post #51

[flagged]

What do you mean developers should deal with functions like those? They're used when necessary, yes, just like any function. And no IDE is required. I'm really puzzled.

> And no IDE is required.

What else to say, good luck.

You didn't get the anecdote, that's probably because you haven't worked with PHP (long enough).

I will give hint: inconsistency.

Re: PHP 8.5

#73

Post by squigz »

holoduke wrote: post #34

Why is it that all these languages like PHP, but also typescript are becoming like impossible puzzles to read. I find these generics, types and other language features very often causing complex software architecture. I see so many collegues these days struggling in understanding codebases. You almost need a PHD brain to be a frontend web developer.

It's somewhat comforting to read my insecurities shared by others in this thread

Re: PHP 8.5

#74

Post by phplovesong »

deaddodo wrote: post #56
phplovesong wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PHP has no generics? I read somewhere that is was "too hard" to get right in PHP land, mostly because of how primitive the typesystem is.

It has nothing to do with being “too hard”, and everything to do with not making sense to the type system. PHP is weakly-typed and heavily reflection-based (so everything is aware of it’s and each other’s type at all times). Adding generics to PHP would make CS fundamentalists somewhat happy, but do nothing to change the fundamental design of PHP nor offer any of the traditional benefits that generics offer to strong…

> And would be a massive headache to implement

Exactly. The type system was never built for anything even slightly more complex. Its basically annotations for primitive types and classes. PHP has always had an weak type system, so adding generics will most likely never happen.

> Adding generics to PHP would make CS fundamentalists somewhat happy

PHP has really only one collection datatype (the infamous array), so having generics would be tremendously useful, as an example you cant return an typed array from a function, witch is just really bad.

For an counter example, Python managed to do this, while also being a dynamic language, although having a stronger typing than PHP.

Re: PHP 8.5

#75

Post by phplovesong »

dreadnip wrote: post #54
phplovesong wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PHP has no generics? I read somewhere that is was "too hard" to get right in PHP land, mostly because of how primitive the typesystem is.

If you're interested about generics in PHP, you can read this blog post by the PHP foundation: https://thephp.foundation/blog/2024/08/19/state-of-generics-... or this PR by Nikita: https://github.com/PHPGenerics/php-generics-rfc/issues/45 . TLDR: The PHP compiler isn't really suited for the job, it would introduce a lot of complexity to an already complex codebase and the memory/performance hit would be substantial.

Yup, this was pretty much what i recalled. The typesystem, while being incredibly "unintelligent", somehow still is so complex that generics are not going to happen.

Re: PHP 8.5

#77

Post by bawolff »

calpaterson wrote: post #5

A lot of people are too proud to be associated with PHP. I am ready to admit that know nothing about the language except that a lot of people make cool things with it. My favourite PHP product at the moment is BookStack ( https://www.bookstackapp.com/ ), a really good wiki. I run an instance for my family and it's great. But there are loads of things. And I notice that many of the sites I like using...are built on we…

> My favourite PHP product at the moment is BookStack (https://www.bookstackapp.com/), a really good wiki.

Another wiki that uses php is Wikipedia.

People like to shit on php but it powers some of the largest sites in the world.

At the end of the day, programming language doesn't matter much. You can be a good programmer in any language and a bad programmer in any language.

Re: PHP 8.5

#78

Post by etothet »

calpaterson wrote: post #5

A lot of people are too proud to be associated with PHP. I am ready to admit that know nothing about the language except that a lot of people make cool things with it. My favourite PHP product at the moment is BookStack ( https://www.bookstackapp.com/ ), a really good wiki. I run an instance for my family and it's great. But there are loads of things. And I notice that many of the sites I like using...are built on we…

I’ve made my living amd career off of PHP and I enjoy its modernization.

Coding in PHP can be a lot like playing the guitar or writing poetry: many people can do it, but it’s easy to do very badly.

Re: PHP 8.5

#79

Post by neor »

theoldgreybeard wrote: post #76

Can’t believe we’re getting array_first, array_last and fatal error stack traces in PHP before GTA6.

Nice additions, but haven't really missed them a lot.

Most of the time if I want the first or last element I don't care about the array itself so array_shift and array_pop work just fine.

Re: PHP 8.5

#80

Post by deaddodo »

pjmlp wrote: post #71
deaddodo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C hasn’t changed all that much, and someone who coded in C99 would take about 30mins to catch up to a modern C23 codebase’s changes. Famously so, as conservatism to change is the main friction in the community for about two decades now. If you pull out examples of the earliest C, sure, it looks weird . But that C was already obsolete in 1989. Since then, it’s had a minor iteration (e.g. five-eight additions/modificat…

I am quite sure many people would fail Pub Quizzes related to C, when taking into account the whole language alongside compiler extensions, regardless of the compiler.

To learn all of the common GCC and MSVC extensions would make up a fraction of the language features of C# or Java. You’re really overstating the complexity to make some invalid point.

“Actually, one of the most notoriously conservative and simple (in feature set) languages is really super complex and has evolved a ton because it has _Generic and varargs now, and __packed__ exists as a compiler feature.”

And to further double down, that minor evolution is over 36 years (arguably a decade longer, but I’m being generous with your argument). Not the 12-16 years (depending which 5 point release you wanna start with) that PHP has morphed into an entirely different language.

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