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How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

theguardian.com

41–50 of 145 posts

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#41
post #8

Trying to read this to the end feels impossible - the Guardian keeps flicking the page to show ads and the page refreshes for no reason and I’m sure their ads impressions numbers are going through the roof. Feels like ad fraud.

I remember reading The Guardian back in the oughts when they were winning awards for their UX and they were my go-to answer to the front-end interview question of "Which websites do you admire?"

Ha, they even have their "Website of the year" award linked on their top banner

https://web.archive.org/web/20080704050905/http://theguardia...

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

forgive me if the rise of autocracy and death of civil liberties in my country occupies my thoughts nowadays.

What's crazy to me is people like blitz_skull exist, who think that excessive identity politics in the democratic party is worth literally destroying the country. They call identity politics, a small subset of the liberal coalition platform (alongside rule of law, climate change acknowledgement, sustainable energy and better social safety nets) a virus, and authoritarianism and the destruction of the rule of law in the United States as the cure.

Someone who is presumably not a bot, on a forum like this, thinks that. If only they would dive deeper so I could attempt to understand.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#44
post #39

For those who are interested: I recently read the book "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan, a professional who also helps people leave cults. His approach isn't as much of a "long game" as Ryan and Kelly's approach. One thing that Hassan explains is that MLMs are often very similar to cults, and he also explains the difference between cults and religion. Another book to read is The Running Grave by Robert…

Steven Hassan also wrote "The Cult of Trump: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the President Uses Mind Control", which is very relevant today.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#45
post #38
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Ahem, you might as well just have described the trans movement. The flag, the drag, the self victimisation and combative behaviour...

I don't often hear trans people say cis people literally shouldn't exist. I don't often see them celebrating official public corruption and the destruction of our country. I don't see them deliberately trolling and lying to themselves and the world for the purpose of facilitating hypocrisy and lawbreaking daily.

"Having a flag" is the only common theme they share, any other comparison is a stretch.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#46
post #29

Some pull quotes, since people seem to be struggling with page loading: > his client, a woman who had recently finished her master’s at a prestigious university, had been drawn into a scam job. It was essentially a pyramid scheme built around a health regimen. Before you could sell it, you had to try it, so you knew what you were selling. > The regimen? Multiple enemas a day. “It escalated to 40 to 60 enemas a day,”…

40 to 60 enemas a day? Per person? Even for hyperbole, that sounds like a lot.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#47
post #8

Trying to read this to the end feels impossible - the Guardian keeps flicking the page to show ads and the page refreshes for no reason and I’m sure their ads impressions numbers are going through the roof. Feels like ad fraud.

Ublock origin -- blocking the javascript, and the article is readable with no page flicking, and no ads at all.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#48
Fantastic article. And their "light touch" approach seems very correct.

Now --

What counts as a cult?

One sufficient condition, in my opinion, would be ritualized sexual abuse, especially of children.

But this is baked even into several mainstream religions, if you only open your eyes.

What is good, at least, is that, like viruses, cults/religions generally evolve to be less harmful to their hosts over time. (This is over time scales of multiple human generations. Within a single generation, a cult may do just the opposite, as it becomes marginalized from society and increasingly normalizes deviance, e.g. Aum reacting to humiliation in Japanese elections by releasing Sarin.)

Examples of this "taming" process: Flayed prisoners of the Aztecs are now dancing skeletons, "local color", used in America to sell tacos. Likewise the Abrahamic religions are an evolution of animal sacrifice cults, themselves echoing earlier human sacrifice cults; they are still shaking off frankly-insane practices, but could be worse. The history of LDS provides a less dramatic example, but one recent-enough that early stages are still well-documented in the historical record.

And if all this sounds New Atheistic, note that I am actually quite sympathetic to (almost apologetic for) certain aspects of religion (though I increasingly do wonder whether it is religions that teach goodness, or whether it is goodness that religions must attach themselves to for legitimacy, mixing it with other content). (For example I have pushed back, here, against characterizations of Christianity as "right wing", as that is not at all the content of the New Testament.)

One thing is certain: If a religious identity has bound itself to a person, then attacking the person will only strengthen the identity. The memetic parasite and the human victim must be clearly distinguished. Failure to do this results in violence against people which only strengths the meme. Blood for the blood god.

I suspect many of these memes can be tamed to the point of decency over multiple generations. Though they always carry the risk of reversion to older forms. Somehow the "DNA" is still there. So I'm not sure. They have to be stabilized to their nondestructive manifestations.

I also wonder about "non-religious" cult dynamics, e.g. those attached to political movements (both MAGA and woke), or financial/moral/credit systems, e.g. crypto.

One of my concerns also is the way that Silicon Valley leaders may study these methods not to defend against them but to exercise them in the formation of totalizing company cultures. Theil and Karp have been explicit about this. It distresses me: You should read about the scapegoat mechanism to destroy it, not to start using it.

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#49
post #8

Trying to read this to the end feels impossible - the Guardian keeps flicking the page to show ads and the page refreshes for no reason and I’m sure their ads impressions numbers are going through the roof. Feels like ad fraud.

I hate ads as much as everyone, but I think you need to at least take a modicum of steps to block ads before posting to HN that you hate seeing all the ads. (Perhaps your point though is to broadcast to everyone—who presumably are in fact blocking ads—that the site is pure awfulness without any ad-blocking. Of course you're preaching to the choir at that point anyway.)

The Guardian attempts to stop you accessing its articles if you are using an ad-blocker and don't have a paid subscription. (They didn't always do this. I don't know whether they do it uniformly to everyone or whether e.g. it's different based on their guess of your location.)

Re: How do the pros get someone to leave a cult?

#50
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahem, you might as well just have described the trans movement. The flag, the drag, the self victimisation and combative behaviour...

I don't often hear trans people say cis people literally shouldn't exist. I don't often see them celebrating official public corruption and the destruction of our country. I don't see them deliberately trolling and lying to themselves and the world for the purpose of facilitating hypocrisy and lawbreaking daily. "Having a flag" is the only common theme they share, any other comparison is a stretch.

I just recently happened to attend a community meeting which took place in a room of a trans-centric housing project. Several of the houses residents also attended. I was schocked to witness a casual chat escalating to a point where several people agreed that they should forcefully storm the parliament building of the capital, if politicians can not be made to fullfil their wishes. So there you have your Jan6 story, from the other side. I decided to distance myself from these people. I know, its just an anecdote, and therefore, according to HN, not worth a dime. But it showed to me that there is really no difference between the sides. If frustrated enough, they end up going for, or at least playing with the thought of, violence. Remember RAF? But I digress...
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