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Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

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Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#201

Post by Aeglaecia »

alterom wrote: post #190
Aeglaecia wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you took an adhd cunt and threw him in the bush he would be fine ... but if you threw him into a cookie cutter hyper capitalist no-hope no-wife no-friends no-third-space doomscroll-to-death sealed box , that man wouldn't be fine! the man in question never changed , only his environment did. ergo , societal amphetamines are about as supportive as me handing you a set of crutches after i broke your legs. but trying…

Take a person, put them somewhere near equator in January, they're fine. Take them to Finland, they're freezing. The only thing that changed is the environment. The person is fine. So all this "winter clothing" scam exists only to enrich clothes makers. The world simply should be warm everywhere, then none of that stuff would be necessary. Winter clothes aren't a solution to feeling cold, because they don't address t…

we aren't fixing anything , humanity is happy enough to rely on bandaid solutions until the wound festers out of control ... no society didnt force you not to send that message you did that yourself and blaming a condition is inherently giving up responsibility for your actions ... i dont have the energy to rebut attacks on my language techniques any more , goodbye sir

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#202

Post by gishh »

wisty wrote: post #183
jon-wood wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CBT is effective in treating people whose problems mostly stem from an inaccurate view of themselves or the world around them, because CBT is training people to take a step back and reassess what they're seeing. If you're suffering from some forms of OCD for example it can be incredibly effective, it helps to reframe things. It is not effective, and I would argue actively worsens, situations where you're feeling bad…

Here's part of a meta analysis. > Using a random effects model, we found that CBTs had medium-to-large effects from pre- to posttreatment (self-reported ADHD symptoms: g = 1.00; 95% confidence interval [CI: 0.84, 1.16]; self-reported functioning g = .73; 95% CI [0.46, 1.00]) and small-to-medium effects versus control (g = .65; 95% CI [0.44, 0.86] for symptoms, .51; 95% CI [0.23, 0.79] for functioning). Effect sizes w…

CBT is a TSA analogue for therapists.

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#203

Post by gishh »

raducu wrote: post #130
wisty wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. CBT works pretty well for adhd, studies are clear on this. But medication seems even better, as does a combination of therapy and medication. ADHD isn't unusual as far as the effectiveness of therapy, it's unusual in how well the medication is proven to work.

> CBT works pretty well for adhd. I want to share my counter example -- no amount of therapy could help me not almost loose it every time I drove my daughter in heavy traffic or deal with her just being a toddler. But after 2 weeks being on concerta made lasting changes even months off the drug. It was the best type o therapy -- you just do the thing that triggers you minus the bad part and learn it's not so bad and…

Can we chat? You struck a chord with me.

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#204

Post by IIAOPSW »

caycep wrote: post #185
IIAOPSW wrote: post #22

Dune also predicted it. The spice must flow.

without spice the navigators I mean air traffic controller/spirit airlines pilots cannot function

Exactly. The spice lets the quant guild see into the future. This ability is so valuable it has earned them the patronage of House Goldman and House Blackrock.

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#205

Post by alterom »

unparagoned wrote: post #195
alterom wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Adderall is a stimulant with the effects Huxley predicted. That's exactly my point: it is NOT. Not for the people Adderall is prescribed to and was developed for . See: https://romankogan.net/adhd#Medication >I don't believe this is specifically about ADHD. There's nothing to believe in here. Adderall is a drug that's specifically about ADHD . It's a stimulant that helps people with ADHD overcome executive dysfuncti…

Paul Erdős Proves you wrong.

>Paul Erdős Proves you wrong.

In which way specifically?

I.e., what do you think is wrong in what I said, and how does Paul Erdos demonstrate it's wrong.

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#206

Post by latentsea »

unparagoned wrote: post #194
latentsea wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, when you have ADHD and you take stimulants you don't feel any sort of high or however it makes people with normally functioning dopamine receptors feel, you just feel normal.

That’s just a myth. Studies show that the drugs increase focus in everyone regardless of disease state. Surveys show that people with adhd take higher doses to get high as well.

I'm referring to the prescribed doses. I never intentionally tried to take a higher dose to "get high" , so I wouldn't know about that. But my point is non-adhd people who take normal doses prescribed for ADHD people likely feel something that ADHD people do not. The prescribed doses don't get us high.

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#207

Post by superice »

Aeglaecia wrote: post #200
superice wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you were 100% correct and the world is broken, fully causing ADHD as a disorder: Please fix the world FIRST and only once proven ADHD is caused by what once was the shape of western society and no longer applies, THEN you get to take the metaphorical wheelchair away. The alternative is that you prevent millions of people in managing their disability while asking them to bet on your view of the world AND on ou…

yeah my point is that the western society should be changed and i dont know why you think that i think that speed should be taken away entirely but i dont think that

Apologies for drawing that conclusion, but usually the argument presented is something like "amphetamines / stimulants bad especially in healthy adults -> usage on the rise due to increases ADHD diagnoses -> diagnoses potentially fraudulent? -> pharmaceutical companies are incentivized to sell stimulants -> ban stimulants entirely before it gets out of hand and rejoice our win on late stage capitalism and druggies".

I might've misunderstood the point you were trying to make, but saying 'society causes the issue' usually is followed by 'therefore treating with meds is silly and we shouldn't do that'. The latter part is what I take issue with, not the former, and if you weren't advocating for that then we have no issue and are in agreement.

I'd love to find a constructive way to change society for the better so ADHD is not as much of an issue, but personally, I don't see that happening. And I do see anti-intellectualism and puritanism on the rise, and with it, a movement that wants to take my crutches away to deal with society as it is. Maybe you weren't one of them, but I saw you making similar arguments, which is what prompted me to respond.

Calling the group of all stimulant medications "speed" is not a great sign either if I have to judge where somebody stands in this debate btw. Dextroamphetamine, one of the ingredients in Adderall, is similar to other amphetamines as found in speed, but for instance methylphenidate aka Ritalin only partially has the same working mechanisms, blocking the reuptake of dopamine and norepiphrine but not helping the extra release of more of these neurotransmitters. And that comes with a different profile in terms of addiction risks and whatnot. It is not helpful to call all of these medications 'speed' as if all ADHD people are buying potentially contaminated stuff on street corners from shady dealers, manufacturing this breaking bad style in their shed. Managing ADHD is done with clean, medical-grade, typically less-potent versions, with tightly controlled doses, closely managed by a licensed medical professional. Framing ADHD patients taking their prescription medication as speed users is not helpful. Even if you don't have any ill intent, reinforcing the belief we are all essentially the same as junkies just provides ammo for people who do want to take this away.

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#208

Post by superice »

alterom wrote: post #192
superice wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you were 100% correct and the world is broken, fully causing ADHD as a disorder: Please fix the world FIRST and only once proven ADHD is caused by what once was the shape of western society and no longer applies, THEN you get to take the metaphorical wheelchair away. The alternative is that you prevent millions of people in managing their disability while asking them to bet on your view of the world AND on ou…

> Even if you were 100% correct and the world is broken, fully causing ADHD as a disorder: Please fix the world FIRST and only once proven ADHD is caused by what once was the shape of western society and no longer applies, THEN you get to take the metaphorical wheelchair away. [...] You're just not presenting an attractive deal to anyone. Thanks for writing this succinct counterpoint! The argument of the commenter yo…

I don't like the superpower vibe either. I do not entirely look negative upon my ADHD, but then again, to what degree it is my personality and to what degree it is the disorder, I don't know. If others want to view their ADHD as a superpower, I'm all for it, but pushing this narrative too hard doesn't feel constructive.

For me personally, I tend to view myself as a human with some characteristics which in most contexts are not helpful, but make me uniquely suited for other situations. I try to avoid the word 'broken', but for a long time I thought about myself as 'broken in a sometimes useful way'. My burden in life is to manage and control the characteristics where they are disadvantaging me, and position myself as much as I can in positions where these characteristics are useful assets. To hook into your winter metaphore: If you always feel cold, working in a tropic resort where others would feel continually hot, sweaty and uncomfortable might just be perfect for you.

Where it crosses the line for me is neurotypical people saying 'oh I don't need winter clothes, and anyone who does is must be to use a shortcut and should just jog themselves warm instead'. Or even ADHD people saying: 'My feeling cold all the time is a superpower, you should just go work in your local sauna and you'll have no problem at all!'. Great, happy that you guys don't have this issue or figured out a workaround, but I do, and I need my damn winter clothes. I wish I didn't, I'll look for warmer situations, but I need them right now.

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#209

Post by walletdrainer »

alterom wrote: post #188
walletdrainer wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we broadly agree, Adderall does not make anyone smarter. I would hazard to suggest that it can make many people much more productive though. This topic has been studied extensively since before anyone cared about ADHD, and the answer is broadly “yes, for some tasks”. > Nobody has really looked at these drugs used as work enhancers I would strongly disagree with this bit, this was one of the primary purposes p…

>I would hazard to suggest that it can make many people much more productive though That suggestion is disproved by the research I linked, particularly when it comes to mental tasks . >the answer is broadly “yes, for some tasks For mindless tasks, like long-haul driving, where staying awake is pretty much all that's required ? Sure. Anything else, citation needed. >The historical and continued use by various militari…

> For mindless tasks, like long-haul driving, where staying awake is pretty much all that's required ? Sure

This currently describes most tasks humans do.

I certainly won’t go and suggest that taking stimulants for long-haul driving is a good idea, unless of course you’re in a war zone and lives depend on it. But stimulants do improve performance in these tasks for the vast majority of people. While the side effects probably aren’t worth it for the society as a whole, they probably are on an individual level for e.g. a cab driver who is able to work more hours and pay his rent. That’s of course not a desirable state of affairs, but it is real.

A software developer grinding out a boring project could also greatly benefit, while being much less risky than the cabbie on stimulants.

In the end I believe there are many people without ADHD living in situations where Adderall could meaningfully improve their lives, making it easier to grind through hours of mindless work. Someone living paycheck to paycheck could pick up a few extra hours and significantly improve their financial situation and overall wellbeing.

Should anyone take Adderall in the hopes that it’ll make them smarter? No.

Re: Aldous Huxley predicts Adderall and champions alternative therapies

#210

Post by Aeglaecia »

superice wrote: post #207
Aeglaecia wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah my point is that the western society should be changed and i dont know why you think that i think that speed should be taken away entirely but i dont think that

Apologies for drawing that conclusion, but usually the argument presented is something like "amphetamines / stimulants bad especially in healthy adults -> usage on the rise due to increases ADHD diagnoses -> diagnoses potentially fraudulent? -> pharmaceutical companies are incentivized to sell stimulants -> ban stimulants entirely before it gets out of hand and rejoice our win on late stage capitalism and druggies".…

would love to continue this discussion but i feel like it will involve lots of this error correction so i shall leave it here , all the best
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