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Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

ericmigi.com

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Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#61

Post by radlad »

modeless wrote: post #60
radlad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a bit of a disingenuous reading of the article when the surrounding text states: > Since then, we built a replacement app store API that was compatible with the old app store front end. We built a storage backend for it, and then we spent enormous effort to import the data that we salvaged. We’ve built a totally new dev portal, where y’all submitted brand new apps that never existed while Pebble was a…

None of that is included in their statement that "we’ve spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on storing and hosting the data". If they meant that they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on building a dev portal, patching apps, and the other stuff you mention, they should have said that instead of "storing and hosting the data".

You are choosing a very literal interpretation, which is fine, if you think it is useful. To me, it looks disingenuous and irrelevant. The hosting and storage of that data would have been pointless without this additional development. And arguably, the app store development _is_ part of hosting it.

Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#62

Post by AlotOfReading »

apparent wrote: post #56
evil-olive wrote: post #47

this part of the response doesn't pass the smell test for me: > Accusation 4: ‘[Eric] scraped our app store, in violation of the agreement that we reached with him previously’ > Here’s what happened. I wanted to highlight some of my favourite watchfaces on the Pebble Appstore. Last Monday Nov 10, after I put my kids to sleep and between long calls with factories in Asia, I started building a webapp to help me quickly…

I think the key question is whether the automated actions resulted in information being retained by Pebble. If it was just going through a motion and pulling some data (or pulling all data but only keeping some of it), then that would be consistent with Eric's story and not be the kind of scraping that Rebble is worried about. They're worried about the content being archived somewhere else, and they seem to think tha…

It might not be the kind of scraping rebble is worried about, but a bunch of requests to extract data into another form is very plainly scraping and the contract doesn't differentiate based on intent or whether the process is entirely automated. The entire contract is similarly loose and informal, which contributes to these sorts of misunderstandings.

The most reasonable solution would have been for Eric to send an email first, but few contract disputes start with everyone doing the most reasonable thing.

Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#63

Post by renewiltord »

radlad wrote: post #16
renewiltord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear why the community refuses to make the app store archive public. It's an archive of other developers' work. Doesn't make any sense to say "you can only get these from the Rebble website". Just do requester-pays on the S3 bucket.

The concern is that it will be imported into a separate app store owned by Pebble, which Pebble will lock Rebble out of (i.e. block scraping and refuse to release this data), and then if Pebble goes bust again, Rebble is left with less than they started with. As I understand it, they almost came to an agreement on this: > We want to give Core’s users access to the Rebble App Store. (We thought we agreed on that last…

Makes sense. They don't want to be EEE'd. Well, unfortunate, but this seems like a trust breakdown.

Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#64

Post by margalabargala »

shreddit wrote: post #57
margalabargala wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They fear being replaced/made irrelevant after Core builds their own infrastructure using Rebble's work. They want guarantees that if they give Core access to the app store data, Core won't build a proprietary/walled garden that cuts Rebble out. It's understandable that Rebble fears someone doing this, since this is what Rebble did. Rebble took the original open-source Pebble work of thousands of independent develo…

Rebble sounds pretty much like a non profit to me > The Rebble Foundation is a non-profit organization that keeps the Pebble community alive. rebble.io https://rebble.foundation/

They aren't a 501c3. When I wrote my original comment I did a search for Rebble among all 501c3 ores and they are not there.

I looked closer after your comment. They appear to be a "Michigan Domestic Non-Profit Corporation".

Why aren't they a 501c3? I have no idea. It makes me trust them less to be honest, that they are some sort of nonprofit but not a 501c3.

Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#65

Post by Dayshine »

evil-olive wrote: post #47

this part of the response doesn't pass the smell test for me: > Accusation 4: ‘[Eric] scraped our app store, in violation of the agreement that we reached with him previously’ > Here’s what happened. I wanted to highlight some of my favourite watchfaces on the Pebble Appstore. Last Monday Nov 10, after I put my kids to sleep and between long calls with factories in Asia, I started building a webapp to help me quickly…

Scraping is about harvesting data. Just using the API like any other user is clearly not scraping.

Is browsing linkedin scraping? Is browsing hacker news through an alternate client scraping?

No, scraping is rehosting hacker news.

Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#66

Post by fphhotchips »

apparent wrote: post #56
evil-olive wrote: post #47

this part of the response doesn't pass the smell test for me: > Accusation 4: ‘[Eric] scraped our app store, in violation of the agreement that we reached with him previously’ > Here’s what happened. I wanted to highlight some of my favourite watchfaces on the Pebble Appstore. Last Monday Nov 10, after I put my kids to sleep and between long calls with factories in Asia, I started building a webapp to help me quickly…

I think the key question is whether the automated actions resulted in information being retained by Pebble. If it was just going through a motion and pulling some data (or pulling all data but only keeping some of it), then that would be consistent with Eric's story and not be the kind of scraping that Rebble is worried about. They're worried about the content being archived somewhere else, and they seem to think tha…

One thing I'm confused about in this whole thing is what makes Rebble think they have a right to the data in the first place? They scraped it! "We don't like you scraping the data we scraped" doesn't hold water for me, whether Eric retained it or not.

Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#67

Post by jjfoooo4 »

radlad wrote: post #16
renewiltord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear why the community refuses to make the app store archive public. It's an archive of other developers' work. Doesn't make any sense to say "you can only get these from the Rebble website". Just do requester-pays on the S3 bucket.

The concern is that it will be imported into a separate app store owned by Pebble, which Pebble will lock Rebble out of (i.e. block scraping and refuse to release this data), and then if Pebble goes bust again, Rebble is left with less than they started with. As I understand it, they almost came to an agreement on this: > We want to give Core’s users access to the Rebble App Store. (We thought we agreed on that last…

That’s the risk you run when you contribute work to open source.

Unless there’s an accusation that Eric / Core is violating license, I don’t see a lot of merit to Rebble’s position.

Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#68

Post by apparent »

fphhotchips wrote: post #66
apparent wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the key question is whether the automated actions resulted in information being retained by Pebble. If it was just going through a motion and pulling some data (or pulling all data but only keeping some of it), then that would be consistent with Eric's story and not be the kind of scraping that Rebble is worried about. They're worried about the content being archived somewhere else, and they seem to think tha…

One thing I'm confused about in this whole thing is what makes Rebble think they have a right to the data in the first place? They scraped it! "We don't like you scraping the data we scraped" doesn't hold water for me, whether Eric retained it or not.

Yeah, they definitely started by scraping. Apparently 500 of the 13,500 apps were submitted post-Pebble, and Rebble also apparently did a bunch of other upgrades over time.

But you're right that there's some hypocrisy here, given their roots, and they don't really acknowledge that.

Re: Pebble, Rebble, and a path forward

#69

Post by radlad »

jjfoooo4 wrote: post #67
radlad wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concern is that it will be imported into a separate app store owned by Pebble, which Pebble will lock Rebble out of (i.e. block scraping and refuse to release this data), and then if Pebble goes bust again, Rebble is left with less than they started with. As I understand it, they almost came to an agreement on this: > We want to give Core’s users access to the Rebble App Store. (We thought we agreed on that last…

That’s the risk you run when you contribute work to open source. Unless there’s an accusation that Eric / Core is violating license, I don’t see a lot of merit to Rebble’s position.

I think you're 100% right WRT the open-source code Rebble developed publicly. The big open question right now seems to be about the private app store data Rebble archived (and further developed) - which looks legally murky to me.
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