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My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

sashachapin.substack.com

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Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#381

Post by lazide »

whstl wrote: post #324
lazide wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but why would they care? And why do you think it matters?

That's precisely my point. If you're not gonna reproduce with someone, their "reproductive fitness" is none of your business. Once again this is just a rationalization for horrible behavior.

But this is the neurodivergent ‘just world’ blind spot.

The world isn’t just. People like people with good genetics, because being friendly with the strong gets you benefits more than it gets you costs. Especially if you’re able to influence (or even pathologically manipulate) them.

Most people just know this, subconsciously. So they would probably even deny it. But it’s transparently easy to test, and even easier to see evidence of by just looking around.

Also, most attractive people work to be attractive because it’s often mutually beneficial (assuming they can counter manipulate or influence appropriately). Having people attracted to you gives you the ability to use other people’s resources for your benefit.

Most attractive people just know this, subconsciously. So they would probably even deny it. But it’s transparently easy to test, and even easier to see evidence of by just looking around.

This is generally kept covert, because like most covert power, it attracts negative attention if brought to conscious awareness - as then it’s perceived as manipulation, not influence, or encourages more jealousy, etc. as it’s not fair.

But life isn’t fair, except where we make it, and making something fair requires power.

And acquiring and maintaining power is fundamentally unfair.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#382

Post by lazide »

whstl wrote: post #325
lazide wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, it’s how it is.

Yes, people who judge others like this are anti-social assholes. Of course that's not as bad as people who try to rationalize bad behavior behind a veil of pseudo-intellectuality. Once again: rationalizations don't make something true.

Says the person trying to rationalize away obviously common human behavior as not existing because it is bad?

Or do you think anti-social assholes do not exist or are not common? Or that any system of identification of people should not attempt to understand them?

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#383

Post by whstl »

coldtea wrote: post #379
whstl wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN never ceases to surprise me with the rationalizations for any kind of behavior.

You keep using this word rationalization. I don't think it means what you think it means

Nope. I'm using it correctly. You might be in denial, though ;)

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#384

Post by whstl »

lazide wrote: post #381
whstl wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely my point. If you're not gonna reproduce with someone, their "reproductive fitness" is none of your business. Once again this is just a rationalization for horrible behavior.

But this is the neurodivergent ‘just world’ blind spot. The world isn’t just. People like people with good genetics, because being friendly with the strong gets you benefits more than it gets you costs. Especially if you’re able to influence (or even pathologically manipulate) them. Most people just know this, subconsciously. So they would probably even deny it. But it’s transparently easy to test, and even easier to…

I'm not saying the word is just anywhere in my message.

I'm just saying I can call a spade a spade.

If anything, it's the rationalizations around certain behaviors that are claiming the world is perfect and just as is.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#385

Post by whstl »

lazide wrote: post #382
whstl wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people who judge others like this are anti-social assholes. Of course that's not as bad as people who try to rationalize bad behavior behind a veil of pseudo-intellectuality. Once again: rationalizations don't make something true.

Says the person trying to rationalize away obviously common human behavior as not existing because it is bad? Or do you think anti-social assholes do not exist or are not common? Or that any system of identification of people should not attempt to understand them?

I'm not saying anywhere that those behaviors don't exist.

I'm just saying that there is no game anywhere, except in the head of people who are pretending to play a game.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#386

Post by antonvs »

gblargg wrote: post #239
etangent wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. A lot of stuff "normal" people do is charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Except because they are not conscious about it, we give them a pass. One of the characteristics of autistic-spectrum individuals is that they must make a conscious effort to achieve goals that are achieved unconsciously by most of u…

What comes across as creepy about the techniques is that the approach doesn't seem to involve personal consequences; it seems to be sterile, like a game with no negative effects if it goes wrong. Normal people have all sorts of anxiety and potential hurt if they do these things, since they know how they affect others. Personally I'd prefer that "spectrum" individuals just be themselves. I take it as my own shortcomin…

> I like the challenge of interacting with someone who does things very differently.

So this is about you?

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#387

Post by lazide »

whstl wrote: post #380
coldtea wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> judging that shames, excludes, or hurts is antisocial even if many people do it. That's a modern dellusion. Sociology (and common wisdom) tells us that judgment "that shames, excludes, or hurts" is necessary for the development of morality, social cohesion, and cooperation. Note: not any random judgment "that shames, excludes, or hurts" has this possitive role, but plenty of judgements that "shame, exclude, or hurt…

And there is nothing positive or productive about the kind of judgement I'm talking about.

What kind are you talking about?

Refusing to be an asshole to someone being an asshole just enables them being an asshole.

Refusing to judge if someone is being an asshole, ensures that someone being an asshole will see no consequences for being an asshole.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#388

Post by looperhacks »

acuozzo wrote: post #96
donatj wrote: post #52

> The other day, someone told me, “I can’t imagine you ever being awkward with people.” I was telling my therapist of several years recently about being uncomfortable with the number of new people I've had to meet recently. He seemed surprised that I wasn't excited by it all and said something along the lines of "You seem like a very social person, that seems out of character." It struck me… am I really that good at…

> I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't known for years. Forget small talk. Listen-- really listen --and engage with open ears. When it's your turn to talk, offer up an anecdote in reply if it's on topic or take the opportunity to pivot to a related topic you're passionate about. If you do the latter: do. not. info-dump. Give them a chance to play the game I just described to you from their si…

As someone who really struggled with social interactions (and still does at times, just not as bad), this fails already at the first two steps:

> Listen-- really listen --and engage with open ears

How do I understand what is important? People say a lot of stuff, some important parts and some parts that are beside the point. Talking also involves identifying and reacting to the "important" bits, picking up the "wrong" stuff will be very weird. An exaggerated example:

> "We had a really bad traffic accident when we went to Sweden"

The obvious thing to engage with is the accident - but a struggling person might as well ask how they liked Sweden.

> When it's your turn to talk, offer up an anecdote [...]

I really struggled to even notice when it's "my turn" to talk. Either interrupting the other person or awkwardly looking at them until I notice or the other person tries to recover the situation.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#389

Post by whstl »

lazide wrote: post #387
whstl wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is nothing positive or productive about the kind of judgement I'm talking about.

What kind are you talking about? Refusing to be an asshole to someone being an asshole just enables them being an asshole. Refusing to judge if someone is being an asshole, ensures that someone being an asshole will see no consequences for being an asshole.

I'm criticizing being an asshole to people who are not naturally the way society expects and had to work their way through.

But to be fair I'm mostly criticizing useless HN post-hoc rationalization.

> Refusing to be an asshole to someone being an asshole just enables them being an asshole.

I have nothing to do with this.

> Refusing to judge if someone is being an asshole, ensures that someone being an asshole will see no consequences for being an asshole.

I also have nothing to do with this.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#390

Post by wedje »

coldtea wrote: post #355
wedje wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> presenting as a woman When autism meets sexism.

The goalposts for "sexism" have moved to the edge of the galaxy if people today think that's sexism. Parent says that "identity is socially-constructed", they defend trans people, they say it "isn't any less justifiable than being assigned good ol' football-playin', roughhousin', English class-hatin', red-blooded American manhood" - but the fact they said "presenting" as opposed to "being" a woman is sexism, as if th…

It is sexism, in that this promotes sexist stereotypes regarding how women should present themselves. There is similar sexism inherent in the concept of "manhood", as well.
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