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My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

sashachapin.substack.com

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Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#361

Post by rsp1984 »

While I have no issues believing that the outlined strategies are effective, and I sincerely congratulate the author on his journey, there is a flip side to engineering "social normalcy" that IMO the author is missing:

Any reasonably "normal" person (anyone that's not severely autistic) will find there are people that we effortlessly connect with and many others we don't. It's the natural state.

Now in any sufficiently intelligent and psychologically OK person the act of eliciting / pushing emotional connection with people from the latter group (where there's no natural connection) should trigger a certain amount of internal disgust.

The fact that it doesn't seem to be the case with the author would indicate that he's more of an outlier. Based on his writing he does seem intelligent and psychologically OK, so there might be other factors at play. My point is that his journey might not be transferable 1:1.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#362

Post by bmn__ »

alexpotato wrote: post #357

I liked this post for three reasons: 1. Smart person faces problem, observes what's going on, thinks about it and finds solution I mention this b/c a lot of folks feel like "I'm me and I know something is wrong in what I'm doing but I don't know what" and stop there. But a lot of life is just learning new skills. That can be from books, videos, friends, or just opening your eyes and seeing what other people are doing…

Spot the blue pill propaganda.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#363

Post by ses1984 »

Nevermark wrote: post #328
ses1984 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t aiming to be authentic a form of “instrumentalizing”?

Being authentic, is about understanding oneself, and being able to communicate oneself better to others so they can understand you better too. When we win, by being a better collaborator with others, it isn't operating in a shallow or selfish sense. It isn't treating others like instruments for our benefit over theirs. It isn't manipulation.

We are mincing words.

I don’t think collaboration, altruism, and other pro social traits are exclusive of instrumentalizing.

Whatever word you want to use that encompasses pro social behaviors, let’s use that word if you don’t like instrumentalizing.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#364

Post by jrochkind1 »

Aurornis wrote: post #190
jrochkind1 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They call that too: > There are two reactions that one could have to the previous section. “Wow, that’s cool, how he developed the ability to create a lot of deep connections in this lonely world.” And: “that is a weird and creepy thing to want, sounds kind of vampiric.” I believe that both reactions are correct in some proportion. > Here is the thing about going around the world in a state of emotional openness and…

> This post actually kind of blows my mind. I suggest re-reading it from some different perspectives. Consider that the narrator may not be entirely reliable. They way they talk about being able to read other people and manipulate them into a sense of openness and connection has some hints of behaviors that are associated with people who view themselves as superior to others and view others as mere targets for their…

From that approach you could view (almost?) all human communication as artificial unreliable manipulation. And not be entirely wrong. But you could also view that same (almost?) all human communication as authentic attempts to connect and heal (including heal the speaker), if sometimes misguided, and not be entirely wrong either.

I am not sure I like what it does to my experience in the world to view all human communication as selfish manipulation. Although I recognize the pull to do so can come from an attempt to protect oneself based on past harm.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#365

Post by 1shooner »

coldtea wrote: post #346
1shooner wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A lot of stuff "normal" people do is charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Except because they are not conscious about it, we give them a pass. One of the characteristics of autistic-spectrum individuals is that they must make a conscious effort to achieve goals that are achieved unconsciously by most of us. I have to say this strikes me as a very distorted perception. I don't know about 'normal,' but a s…

> I have to say this strikes me as a very distorted perception. I don't know about 'normal,' but a socially successful person isn't intuiting their behavior subconsciously, they have learned it, and are actively mindful of it as they engage in it. Lots and lots of, if not most, social behaviors are intuited subconsciously. And that's even if the person has actively studied and learned them (and most are picked up by…

Yes, I think we have different definitions. Some people make a distinction between social behavior and manipulation that you apparently do not.

If I wear nice clothes and make a good impression on someone, I am creating an outcome we both wanted at the outset. If we are meeting socially, they probably wanted to like me, and I wanted them to like me. That was the shared goal. That is cooperative, not manipulative.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#366

Post by kakacik »

etangent wrote: post #72
Aurornis wrote: post #47

This post wasn't what I was expecting from the "socially normal" title. While there is a lot of self-reflection and growth in this piece, a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Look at the first two subheadings: > 1: Connecting with people is about being a dazzling person > 2: Connecting with people is about playing their game The post felt like a rollercoa…

> a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. A lot of stuff "normal" people do is charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Except because they are not conscious about it, we give them a pass. One of the characteristics of autistic-spectrum individuals is that they must make a conscious effort to achieve goals that are achieved unconsciously by most of u…

Nah, that's definitely not a norm. By that definition me and a lot of people from where I come from including whole family and friends/classmates would quality as autistic. I know form experience this is baseline for some people and they simply can't work 'naturally' with others but I'd grade them as 1-2 out of 10 in sociopathic spectrum. That is by no means a negative denigration of them just describing their behavior (and struggles) in the best way I can.

Interestingly not current corporate banking work, where this would be true but then this is highly sociopathic environment with dominant culture that doesn't do direct honest feedback generally. But generally finance attracts the worst of the (smart) crowd so thats not in any way a reference of mankind.

So its cultural quite a lot. I presume you meant some rather extreme situation of above by describing it as autistic-spectrum.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#367

Post by MichaelZuo »

whstl wrote: post #342
K0balt wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly agree that it is an example of poor judgment and perhaps weak character to be broadly judgy about cosmetic efforts in general, I can understand the theoretical plight of someone who might be taken in by a deceptive person in that regard. If you steelman the argument you can see the point, but it’s also unreasonable to assume that a person is living the steelman version of life (and being a deceptive…

But the problem is not admiring good looks if they're natural, or expecting someone to be truthful, or anything of the sort that might or might not theoretically happen. The problem is clearly with the bullying. And the assumptions around character. And basically using "changing yourself" as a proxy for hallucinating all sorts of completely unrelated bad characteristics. And the rationalizing around it. It's the same…

Someone having one consciously developed ulterior motive… does increases the likelihood of them having other consciously developed ulterior motives that might be hidden away?

The linkage isn’t as strong for unconsciously or subconsciously developed ulterior motives. Hence the huge gap in how people behave towards that.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#368

Post by Thossndjsj »

dirtybirdnj wrote: post #182
Thossndjsj wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people from what I've seen don't want unique as much as they want somewhat famailiar. If it deviates too far away from that then they are repulsed, and I can give you an example right here. I'm going to commit suicide. I've known this for the last 15 years. It'll probably be another 10 years before I'll die, but I know my end is half laying down with a 1.5 inch nylon strap tied cinched on my neck and a tree trun…

I am taking care of an aging and physically limited parent. It's brought me to my absolute limit. I often say stuff about wanting to be dead but I don't think I've ever been serious about it. It's the kind of thing I am trying to discourage in myself, but I'm trying to be more compassionate with myself in the times that I do. Why are you so certain? 15 years is a long time to look down that barrel why do you deserve…

I don't know if I can answer that well; it's like me asking you how you can be certain you love someone.

But my best attempt would be to say... There hasn't been any contraindications to make me think that think that suicide isn't the correct choice in the end. It feels right to me.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#369

Post by pixl97 »

Slow_Hand wrote: post #197
acuozzo wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't known for years. Forget small talk. Listen-- really listen --and engage with open ears. When it's your turn to talk, offer up an anecdote in reply if it's on topic or take the opportunity to pivot to a related topic you're passionate about. If you do the latter: do. not. info-dump. Give them a chance to play the game I just described to you from their si…

Yes yes yes. You rarely need to DO anything other than listen. Just be a good listener. Maybe identify handles in what they're saying and then occasionally ask them about them: How did that make you feel? Wait, you did what? Why did you do that? What do you enjoy about that?

>You rarely need to DO anything other than listen

There is a particular amount of risk here, this does set you up to interact with attention vacuums. People that will talk constantly without break nor desire to listen to what you have to say. Over any amount of time (weeks/months) a person that you can have a real two way conversation is needed.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#370

Post by whstl »

coldtea wrote: post #351
whstl wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but just because you can throw a metaphor around doesn't make it true. There is no "rule" in life that says that people have to be judgmental assholes to each other. Using a card game to justify the behavior is just a rationalization.

> There is no "rule" in life that says that people have to be judgmental assholes to each other. Apparently there is, which is why this judgement you speak of happens. It just happens to be a social rule, and you don't like it, but it's a rule nonetheless. Doesn't have to be an official rule, agreed upon, and signed by each participant, or some physical law. Hence, the card game metaphor has some merit. Like people t…

I 100% disagree. It is a minority making the noise and turning everything into life as a game.

Most people don't care, and I'm willing to bet that the ones rationalizing the behavior here don't go out of their way to care or talk about any of this.

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