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My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

sashachapin.substack.com

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Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#251

Post by Nursie »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #193
mcdeltat wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point about lying. I agree, outright lying is not ethical and would be more manipulative, I agree. Is the author lying?

Looking at the definition of manipulation, it occurs to me that manipulation must be a win-lose situation. Otherwise it is persuasion. You could use the same technique, but if it is win win for both it is persuasion, but if you are gaining from their expense it is manipulation. At least according to Wikipedia. There are also white lies. Are you manipulating children if you are claiming santa exists? Are you manipulat…

That seems a little bit of an odd interpretation to me.

Persuasion is honest. "Hey, I think you should do this thing because of reasons a, b, and c, there are some downsides like y and z. It may mean something to me peronally, so I may also to appeal to you to do it for me as a favour. I may even play up how important I think it is."

Manipulation is dishonest. "Hey, I'm going to use an underhanded technique to make you feel like you're missing out on something, or are inadequate, to get you to do this thing. Maybe I'll go overboard on flattery and inflate your ego to achieve my end. I also might lie or omit some of the downsides to give a distorted view of the risks"

Even if it's a win-win situation, it's still manipulation if you're seeking to bypass someone's agency.

> Are you manipulating a person if you either omit a truth or do a white lie because you know truth at that moment in time would be worse for their life.

Yes, certainly, and that's why people often get upset about "little white lies" too. Maybe you are doing a good thing, maybe you're not, but removing agency from someone by keeping the truth from them is always manipulative.

The wiser question may be "is manipulation always wrong?" And I'd argue that if it gets your kids to calm down and go to bed on Christmas Eve, maybe not ...

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#252

Post by reassess_blind »

ozim wrote: post #103
nkrisc wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The post felt like a rollercoaster between using tricks to charm and manipulate, and periods of genuinely trying to learn how to be friends with people. That’s all the same thing. What is being friends with people other than essentially manipulating them into liking you by being likable and a good friend? What’s important is why you’re doing it.

I think big distinction is “doing it on purpose, in a thought out manner” vs “just being who you are and people falling into friendship with you”. Doing it on purpose - even if you don’t have bad intentions - still feels selfish, you make them like you for your own benefit first and foremost as you want them to be your friends.

Some people’s “being who they are” doesn’t get them any friends, and they don’t understand why. They want to connect with people, but their outwards personality may be unintentionally grating, exhausting, tiring, etc.

Socials skills are “skills” like any other and if you aren’t getting the desired result with your current skill set, what better way to improve than purposeful practice?

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#253

Post by replwoacause »

donatj wrote: post #52

> The other day, someone told me, “I can’t imagine you ever being awkward with people.” I was telling my therapist of several years recently about being uncomfortable with the number of new people I've had to meet recently. He seemed surprised that I wasn't excited by it all and said something along the lines of "You seem like a very social person, that seems out of character." It struck me… am I really that good at…

Exact same problem I have with being fully remote. It’s turned into near total isolation from everyone except immediate family.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#254

Post by safety1st »

Aurornis wrote: post #47

This post wasn't what I was expecting from the "socially normal" title. While there is a lot of self-reflection and growth in this piece, a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Look at the first two subheadings: > 1: Connecting with people is about being a dazzling person > 2: Connecting with people is about playing their game The post felt like a rollercoa…

When I read those first two sections I didn't like the guy either, but he arrives at some much healthier takes by the end of the piece. So I think it's intentional to illustrate his growth and the fact that he's willing to put the vulnerability and the mistakes up front and own them to me suggests that he really does get the "secrets" of being socially well adjusted.

My own view is that it's about giving generously to other people without expecting anything in return. People are surprisingly reluctant to do this, but if you do, most people will like you. What are you supposed to give? Well it can be just about anything, time, attention, compliments, money, ideas, a shoulder to cry on, you name it. But probably the most powerful thing if we're talking about building social relationships is to give them your personality. Think of it like there is a big empty jar out there which represents the social environment and we're all wired to not want it to be empty, well go and fill it up with your personality, provide examples of who you are instead of standing off in a corner silently and going unnoticed. Instead of being forgotten you'll be remembered, many will like you, some will love you and some will hate you, the ones who respond most positively are the ones you make an effort to engage with in the future.

Sasha starts figuring this out when he starts working at the fancy restaurant with waiters who would do really odd stuff and it would work. The best waiters were for the most part just displaying a lot of personality. Working at restaurants might have skewed his perspective a bit because when you work as a waiter you're putting on a performance, the goal is to do a job, entertain, get compliments and get tips, beyond the food this is why people go to a nice restaurant. Being authentic and building lasting relationships is secondary to performing a commercial service at a restaurant, but not in real life (and perhaps not at the highest levels of certain commercial services for that matter, the line starts to blur). I think he's realized all this by the end of the article.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#255

Post by thrwwXZTYE »

hekkle wrote: post #240
epolanski wrote: post #216

Author's problem is that he tries too hard, which is off putting. The way to connect with people is to genuinely care about them and listen. The world is full of the oddest people who have normal relations because they simply care. The author seems to show very little empathy or care towards other human beings, in fact the entirety of the article sounds like connecting is all about himself. Me, me and me. How people…

I'm glad it wasn't just me who noticed this. It seems like the author doesn't care at all about other people; only about how to manipulate people into liking them. Gives real narcissist vibes.

Narcissism is a spectrum; everybody's a little narcissistic, and it changes over time. All kids are VERY narcissistic early on, most grow out of it as they experience unconditional love from their parents and are allowed to be their authentic selves in various social contexts.

For various reasons - some kids don't. Bullying can certainly contribute.

So they develop maladaptive strategies (which can look like the first few "stages" in this article) and have to undo the damage later in life (which can look like the later "stages" from the article) to have a chance to experience real human connection.

I think the article can be very beneficial for people who struggle with this, even if it doesn't explicitly mention what the technical name of the struggle is (and BTW it does not have to be NPD - there might be other reasons for people to have similar problems). Maybe even BECAUSE it doesn't mention narcissism (cause narcissism is currently villified on the social media as "they are actual demons that cannot be saved" - so people are very wary of identifying with it, which makes it less likely they will work on themselves).

BTW I'm very disappointed in the current fad on social media of villifying one mental health issue after another only to then come to realize "oh wait, they're actually people not monsters". I've seen it with BPD, now it's the NPD turn. It's usually done for ugly reasons, too (somebody hurt by a person with $mental_health_problem search for validation, so influencers jump in with feel-good validation that portrays the other side as demons).

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#257

Post by groestl »

underlipton wrote: post #243
taurath wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take living as a relatively high functioning autistic (& other things) person and having many neurodivergent friends is that instrumentalizing is more often due to relational failures due to developmental social differences. The underlying of those is most often a hypersensitive (to sight, sound, smells, touch) individual having periods of being overwhelmed by the world around them. Couple that with parents who re…

I think this is where the high incidence of neurodivergence in the trans community and certain subcultures (furries, roleplaying) comes to fore. Autism is often accompanied by identity conflicts - between what you're labeled as, and how people treat you, and how you feel about yourself - because communication disruptions are common when neurotypes are unaligned, and identity is both the reason for and the means by wh…

> in part by giving them a box to put you in and to understand you

Identity is a lookup for a custom zlib dictionary, so communication compresses better! Which means we can pick and choose per communication channel. :) Thanks for that thought!

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#258

Post by petesergeant »

By far the most important advice in here — which isn’t given explicitly — is set yourself up to meet a lot of new people, because that’s how you learn. I worked in a pub a few nights a week, then I worked in a coaching org, then a bunch of new companies, then met lots of new people via the digital nomad community. You’ll get a little better with a bit of time, and with each new human.

Also stay the fuck off IRC.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#260

Post by hgomersall »

paulmooreparks wrote: post #213
etangent wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. A lot of stuff "normal" people do is charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Except because they are not conscious about it, we give them a pass. One of the characteristics of autistic-spectrum individuals is that they must make a conscious effort to achieve goals that are achieved unconsciously by most of u…

I'm not entirely sure what constitutes "normal" anyway. A frequent tongue-in-cheek topic of conversation between my wife (a counselling psychologist) and me is how we're weird, and everyone else seems to be normal, where "normal" in this thread of conversation usually describes some sort of puzzling behaviour.

Each one of us occupies our hallowed space in the rich tapestry of neurodiversity. Only a few people design our social institutions though. "Normal" is looking like those few, and tbh, varies widely. Compare normal at a Cambridge academic department and normal at the local gym and normal at the BBC.
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