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More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

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Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#41

Post by kcplate »

krapp wrote: post #40
kcplate wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? I thought the main leftward argument against the necessity of the second amendment was that we can now trust our government to not overstep its authority and people protecting themselves against tyranny was no longer needed?

All of the anarchists and socialists and marginalized and oppressed communities are on the left. Their arguments against gun ownership and the second amendment were never based on an implicit trust in government.

Well it was definitely a talking point of the mainstream left.

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#42

Post by happytoexplain »

RickJWagner wrote: post #37

What does the Gun Control side of the left have to say about this? Will the factions just politely agree not to talk about it?

I am a staunchly pro gun-control leftist and I own a gun. Are you trying to imply that gun control means "nobody can have guns", or something similarly incompatible with gun ownership?

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#43

Post by happytoexplain »

kcplate wrote: post #31
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more like if you have to worry about masked goons breaking into your house and trying to kidnap you or your family members then maybe you can't trust the government either.

Wait, what? I thought the main leftward argument against the necessity of the second amendment was that we can now trust our government to not overstep its authority and people protecting themselves against tyranny was no longer needed?

That's not my experience at all - every time (possibly literally every single time) I have heard a liberal say that we don't need guns to protect government tyranny, the argument is that you could not protect yourself from the government, not that you would not need to. That seems obvious to me, so I'm a little astonished at what you're saying.

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#44

Post by kcplate »

_lvbh wrote: post #39
kcplate wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? I thought the main leftward argument against the necessity of the second amendment was that we can now trust our government to not overstep its authority and people protecting themselves against tyranny was no longer needed?

You could also look at it from the opposite perspective: the military is now too powerful for private ownership of guns to do much and the downsides of having gun ownership now outweigh the nonexistent benefits

No, this is a weak argument point. We know from experience that urban fighting against small arms is hugely difficult without simply wiping a swath of a population completely out…which our military could do of course, but wouldn’t against a domestic population. We generally wouldn’t even do it against foreign adversaries.

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#45

Post by happytoexplain »

kcplate wrote: post #44
_lvbh wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also look at it from the opposite perspective: the military is now too powerful for private ownership of guns to do much and the downsides of having gun ownership now outweigh the nonexistent benefits

No, this is a weak argument point. We know from experience that urban fighting against small arms is hugely difficult without simply wiping a swath of a population completely out…which our military could do of course, but wouldn’t against a domestic population. We generally wouldn’t even do it against foreign adversaries.

You may certainly make the argument that a sizable guerilla urban force could perform outside their weight class against a federal army. However, it makes no logical sense to assert that most liberals buying guns do so under the theory that they will organize together against their government, nor that they do or should believe that this piece of military wisdom would work out for them.

I.e. it's obviously reasonable to believe that private firearms cannot stand up to the federal government, regardless of whether it is the case under theoretical conditions.

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#46

Post by happytoexplain »

kcplate wrote: post #41
krapp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the anarchists and socialists and marginalized and oppressed communities are on the left. Their arguments against gun ownership and the second amendment were never based on an implicit trust in government.

Well it was definitely a talking point of the mainstream left.

Certainly not - their argument was always that it doesn't make sense to argue that we need guns to overthrow the government. Not that the government is broadly trustworthy.

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#47

Post by krapp »

kcplate wrote: post #41
krapp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the anarchists and socialists and marginalized and oppressed communities are on the left. Their arguments against gun ownership and the second amendment were never based on an implicit trust in government.

Well it was definitely a talking point of the mainstream left.

tbh "we can now trust our government to not overstep its authority and people protecting themselves against tyranny was no longer needed" sounds like an intentional misrepresentation of a leftist position than something many actual leftists would believe.

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#48

Post by esseph »

_lvbh wrote: post #39
kcplate wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? I thought the main leftward argument against the necessity of the second amendment was that we can now trust our government to not overstep its authority and people protecting themselves against tyranny was no longer needed?

You could also look at it from the opposite perspective: the military is now too powerful for private ownership of guns to do much and the downsides of having gun ownership now outweigh the nonexistent benefits

That is not true at all, on both accounts, and I hate reading this take every time it comes up.

It shows a lack of understanding about the nature and power of insurgencies and a vast overestimation of the military's ability to protect itself should every military base, forward refueling point, and backyard airstrip suddenly become under attack. Hint: They're not really designed for that.

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#49

Post by esseph »

kcplate wrote: post #41
krapp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the anarchists and socialists and marginalized and oppressed communities are on the left. Their arguments against gun ownership and the second amendment were never based on an implicit trust in government.

Well it was definitely a talking point of the mainstream left.

The "mainstream left" isn't real, it's a manufactured facet.

Look at the number of historically communist or socialist countries with an AK-47/74/AKM on their flag.

Re: More liberals, people of color and LGBTQ say they're buying guns out of fear

#50

Post by sointeresting »

happytoexplain wrote: post #43
kcplate wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? I thought the main leftward argument against the necessity of the second amendment was that we can now trust our government to not overstep its authority and people protecting themselves against tyranny was no longer needed?

That's not my experience at all - every time (possibly literally every single time ) I have heard a liberal say that we don't need guns to protect government tyranny, the argument is that you could not protect yourself from the government, not that you would not need to . That seems obvious to me, so I'm a little astonished at what you're saying.

The argument of their hypocracy stands though, doesn't it? If someone argues that people don't need guns because they would be ineffective against their government, it's strange that that person would buy a gun precisely to use against their government, right?
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