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Google is killing the open web, part 2

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Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#211
post #206
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite where this "servant-oriented" mentality is from? I don't recall a part of the web where browser developers were viewed as not having agency about what code they ship in their software.

I’ve never heard of servant oriented, but I understand the point. Browsers process and render whatever the server returns. Whether they’re advertisements that download malware or a long rambling page on whatever I’m interested in now, browsers really don’t have much control over what they run.

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

1. As we're seeing here, browser developers determine what content the browser will parse and process. This happens in both directions: tons of what is now common JS/CSS shipped first as browser-specific behavior that was then standardized, and also browsers have dropped support for gopher, for SSLv2, and Flash, among other things.

2. Browsers often explicitly provide a transformation point where users can modify content. Ad blockers work specifically because the browser is not a "servant" of whatever the server returns.

3. Plenty of content can be hosted on servers but not understood or rendered by browsers. I joked about Opera elsewhere on the thread, which notably included a torrent client, but Chrome/Firefox/Safari did not: torrent files served by the server weren't run in those browsers.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#212

Removing XSLT from browsers was long overdue and I'm saying that as ex-maintainer of libxslt who probably triggered (not caused) this removal. What's more interesting is that Chromium plans to switch to a Rust-based XML parser. Currently, they seem to favor xml-rs which only implements a subset of XML. So apparently, Google is willing to remove standards-compliant XML support as well. This is a lot more concerning.

> Currently, they seem to favor xml-rs which only implements a subset of XML.

What in particular do you find objectionable about this implementation? It's only claiming to be an XML parser, it isn't claiming to validate against a DTD or Schema.

The XML standard is very complex and broad, I would be surprised if anyone has implemented it in it's entirety beyond a company like Microsoft or Oracle. Even then I would question it.

At the end of the day, much of XML is hard if not impossible to use or maintain. A lot of it was defined without much thought given to practicality and for most developers they will never had to deal with a lot of it's eccentricities.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#213
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't put weight on the initial proposer either way. As best I've been able to keep up with the topic, google has been the party leading the charge arguing for the removal. I thought they were also the first to announce their decision, though maybe my timing is off there.

It doesn't seem like much of a charge to be led. The decision appears to have been pretty unanimous.

By browser vendors, you mean? Yes it seems like they were in agreement and many here seem to think that was largely driven by google though that's speculation.

Users and web developers seemed much less on board though[1][2], enough that Google referenced that in their announcement.

[1] https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11578 [2] https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably if Mozilla didn't push for it initially XSLT would stay around for another decade or longer. Their board syphons the little money that is left out of their "foundation + corporation" combo, and they keep cutting people from Firefox dev team every year. Of course they don't want to maintain pieces of web standards if it means extra million for their board members.

Mozilla's board are basically Google yes-people. I'm convinced Mozilla is purposefully engineered to be rudderless: C-suite draw down huge salaries, approve dumb, mission-orthgonal objectives, in order to keep Mozilla itself impotent in ever threatening Google. Mozilla is Google's antitrust litigation sponge. But it's also kept dumb and obedient. Google would never want Mozilla to actually be a threat. If Mozilla had…

> If Mozilla had ever wanted a healthy side business, it wasn't in Pocket, XR/VR, or AI. It would have been in building a DevEx platform around MDN and Rust[…] Those people have since been let go.

The first sentence isn't wrong, but the last sentence is confused in the same way that people who assume that Wikimedia employees have been largely responsible for the content on Wikipedia are confused about how stuff actually makes it into Wikipedia. In reality, WMF's biggest contribution is providing infrastructure costs and paying engineers to develop the Mediawiki platform that Wikipedia uses.

Likewise, a bunch of the people who built up MDN weren't and never could be "let go", because they were never employed by Mozilla to work on MDN to begin with.

(There's another problem, too, which is that addition to selling short a lot of people who are responsible for making MDN as useful as it is but never got paid for it, it presupposes that those who were being paid to work on MDN shouldn't have been let go.)

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#215
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem like much of a charge to be led. The decision appears to have been pretty unanimous.

By browser vendors, you mean? Yes it seems like they were in agreement and many here seem to think that was largely driven by google though that's speculation. Users and web developers seemed much less on board though[1][2], enough that Google referenced that in their announcement. [1] https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11578 [2] https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523

Yes, that's what I mean. In this comment tree, you've said:

> google has been the party leading the charge arguing for the removal.

and

> many here seem to think that was largely driven by google though that's speculation

I'm saying that I don't see any evidence that this was "driven by google". All the evidence I see is that Google, Mozilla, and Apple were all pretty immediately in agreement that removing XSLT was the move they all wanted to make.

You're telling us that we shouldn't think too hard about the fact that a Mozilla staffer opened the request for removal, and that we should notice that Google "led the charge". It would be interesting if somebody could back that up with something besides vibes, because I don't even see how there was a charge to lead. Among the groups that agreed, that agreement appears to have been quick and unanimous.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#216
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://issues.chromium.org/issues/451401343 tracks work needed in the upstream xml-rs repository, so it seems like the team is working on addressing issues that would affect standards compliance. Disclaimer: I work on Chrome and have occasionally dabbled in libxml2/libxslt in the past, but I'm not directly involved in any of the current work.

I hope they will also work on speeding it up a bit. I needed to go through 25-30 MB SAML metadata dumps, and an xml-rs pull parser took 3x more time than the equivalent in Python (using libxml2 internally, I think.) I rewrote it all with quick-xml and got a 7-8x speedup over Python, i.e., at least 20x over xml-rs.

Python ElementTree uses Expat, only lxml uses libxml2. Right now, I'm working on SIMD acceleration in my not yet released, GPL-licensed fork of libxml2. If you have lots of character data or large attribute values like in SVG, you will see tremendous speed improvements (gigabytes per second). Unfortunately, this is unlikely to make it into web browsers.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#217
post #210
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not an accurate statement. The web was not just the protocols. It was the protocols and the servers that served them and the browsers that supported them and the web sites that were built with them. There is no web without browsers just like there is no web without websites.

I can’t understand why you’re splitting hairs to this extent. The web is protocols; some are implemented at server side whereas others are implemented at browser side. They’re all still protocols with a big dollop of marketing. That statement was accurate enough if you’re willing to read actively and provide people with the most minimal benefit of the doubt.

My response is in a chain discussing browsers in response to someone who literally said “The web wasn’t the browser it was the protocols.”

I responded essentially “it was indeed also the browser”, which it seems you agree with so I don’t know what you’re even trying to argue about.

> willing to read actively and provide people with the most minimal benefit of the doubt.

Indeed

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#218
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting to see the casual slide of Google towards almost internet explorer 5.1 style behavior, where standards can just be ignored “because market share”. Having flashbacks of “ ”

The standards body is deprecating XSLT with support from Mozilla and Safari (Mozilla first proposed the removal). Not sure how you got from that to “Google is ignoring standards”.

I think the person you’re replying to was referring to the partial support of XML instead of the xslt part.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#219
post #52

I don't disagree that Google is killing the open web. But XSLT is a pretty weak argument for showing that. It is an extremely complicated feature that is very seldom used. I am very doubtful dropping support is some evil political decision. It is much more likely they just don't want to sink resources into maintaining something that is almost never used. For the specific use case of showing RSS and Atom feeds in the…

Of course built-in support for RSS would be better. But what are the chances of that happening?

We already had it, both Firefox and the old Opera supported viewing (and subscribing to) RSS feeds.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#220
I like the idea they mentioned of "a browser made up of composable components, protocol handlers separate from primary document renderers separate from attachment handlers", and I had the same idea. (Not all browsers will have to be implemented in this way, and they are not necessarily all the same, but this can be helpful when you want this.)

There can be two kind of extensions, sandboxed VM codes (e.g. WebAssembly) and native codes; the app store will only allow sandboxed VM codes, and any native codes that you might want must be installed and configured manually.

There is also the issue of such things as: identification of file formats (such as MIME), character sets, proxies, etc.

I hade made up Scorpion protocol and file format which is intended to be between Gemini and "WWW as it should be if it was designed better". This uses ULFI rather than MIME (to avoid some of the issues of MIME), and supports TRON character code, and the Scorpion conversion file can be used to specify a way to handle unknown file formats (there are several ways that this can be specified, including by a uxn code).

So, an implementation can be versatile to support things that can be useful beyond only MIME and Unicode etc.

Adding some additional optional specifications to WWW might also help, e.g. a way to specify that certain parts of the document are supposed be overridden by the user specifications in the client when they are available (although in some cases the client could guess, e.g. if a CSS only selects by HTML commands and media queries and not by anything else (or no CSS at all), then it should be considered unnecessary and the user's specifications of CSS can be used instead if they have been specified). Something like the Scorpion conversion file would be another possibility to have, possibly by adding a response header.

The previous "Google is killing the open web" article also mentions some similar things, but also a few others:

> in 2015, the WHATWG introduces the Fetch API, purportedly intended as the modern replacement for the old XMLHttpRequest; prominently missing from the new specification is any mention or methods to manage XML documents, in favor of JSON

Handling XML or JSON should probably better be a separate function than the function for downloading files, though. (Also, DER is better for many things)

> in 2024, Google discontinues the possibility to submit RSS feeds for review to be included in Google News

This is not an issue having to do with web browsers, although it is related to the issues that do have to do with web browsers (not) handling RSS.

> in 2025, Google announces a change in their Chrome Root Program Policy that within 2026 they will stop supporting certificate with an Extended Key Usage that includes any usage other than server [...]; this effectively kills certificates commonly used for mutual authentication

While I think they should not have stopped supporting such certificates (whoever the certificate is issued to probably should better make their own decision), it is usually helpful to use different certificates for client authentication anyways, so this is not quite as bad as they say, although it is still bad.

(X.509 client authentication would also have many other benefits, which I had described several times in the past.)

> in 2021, Google tried to remove [alert(), prompt(), and confirm()], again citing “security” as reason, despite the proposed changes being much more extensive than the purported security threat, and better solutions being proposed

Another issue is blocking events and JavaScript execution (which can sometimes be desirable; in the case of frames it should be better to only block one frame though), and modal dialog boxes potentially blocking other functions in the browser (which is undesirable). For the former case, there other other things that can be done, though, such as a JavaScript object that controls the execution of another JavaScript context which can then be suspended like a generator function (without needing to be a generator function).

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