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Google is killing the open web, part 2

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Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The culture of the web was "the owners are those who run the web sites, the servants are the software that provides an entry point to the web (read or publish or both)". This is an attempt to rewrite history. Early browser like NCSA Mosaic were never even released as Open Source Software. Netscape Navigator made headlines by offering a free version for academic or non-profit use, but they wanted to charge as much a…

Chromium commits are controlled by a pool of Google developers, so it's not open in the sense that anyone can contribute or steer the direction of the project. It's also 32 million lines of code which is borderline prohibitive to maintain if you're planning any importantly different browser architecture, without a business plan or significant funding. There's lots of things perfectly forkable and maintainable in the…

> Chromium commits are controlled by a pool of Google developers, so it's not open in the sense that anyone can contribute or steer the direction of the project.

By these criteria no software is open source.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#152
post #58

In part 1 of this article, the author wrote, "XSLT is an essential companion to RSS, as it allows the feed itself to be perused in the browser" Actually, you can make an RSS feed user-browsable by using JavaScript instead. You can even run XSLT in JavaScript, which is what Google's polyfill does. I've written thousands of lines of XSLT. JavaScript is better than XSLT in every way, which is why JavaScript has thrived…

JavaScript is ever evolving and it means you need to stick to one of the two browsers (WebKit or Firefox) and keep upgrading. XSLT hasn't changed in years. It's an actual standard instead of an evolving one. I know that other independent browsers that I used to use back in the day just gave up because the pace of divergence pushed by the major implementations meant that it wasn't feasible to keep up independently. I…

JavaScript is backwards compatible. You can use an older standard supported by everything if you wish.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#153
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then standards body is Google and a bunch of companies consuming Google engine code.

I guess you mean except Mozilla and Safari...which are the two other competing browser engines? It's not like a it's a room full of Chromium based browsers.

Safari yes

Mozilla…are they actually competing? Like really and truly.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get the comparison. The XSLT deprecation has support beyond Google.

It's just ill-informed ideological thinking. People see Google doing anything and automatically assume it's a bad thing and that it's only happening because Google are evil. HN has historically been relatively free of such dogma, but it seems times are changing, even here

Maybe free of the "evil Google" dogma but not free from dogma. The few who dared to express one tenth of the disapproval what we usually express about Apple nowadays were downvoted to transparent ink in a matter of minutes. Microsoft had its honeymoon period with HN after their pro open source campaign, WSL, VSCode etc. People who prudently remembered the Microsoft of the 90s and the 2000s did get their fair share of downvotes. Then Windows 11 happened. Surprise. Actually I thought that there has been a consensus about Google being evil for at least ten years but I might me wrong.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that "market demands" is a bit of a misnomer. RSS was (and remains) too tech-y for the mainstream. If browser vendors had made it easy for mainstream users, would there have been as much "market demand"? Between killing off Google Reader and failing to support RSS/Atom, Google handed social media to Facebook et al.

Exactly, those changes which I believe were done at the time to create space for Google Plus (which I think in an alternative reality with some different choices and different execution could very well have been a relevant entrant into the social media space). It involved driving a steak through the heart of Google reader. Perhaps the most widely used RSS reader on the planet, and ripple effects that led to the de-em…

The writing was already on the wall by the time Google Reader shutdown.

>usage of Google Reader has declined

https://googlereader.blogspot.com/2013/03/powering-down-goog...

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get the comparison. The XSLT deprecation has support beyond Google.

It's just ill-informed ideological thinking. People see Google doing anything and automatically assume it's a bad thing and that it's only happening because Google are evil. HN has historically been relatively free of such dogma, but it seems times are changing, even here

Completely agree. You see this all the time in online discourse. I call it the "two things can be true at the same time" problem, where a lot of people seem unable to believe that 2 things can simultaneously be true, in this case:

1. Google has engaged in a lot of anticompetitive behavior to maintain and extend their web monopoly.

2. Removing XSLT support from browsers is a good idea that is widely supported by all major browser vendors.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#157
post #52

I don't disagree that Google is killing the open web. But XSLT is a pretty weak argument for showing that. It is an extremely complicated feature that is very seldom used. I am very doubtful dropping support is some evil political decision. It is much more likely they just don't want to sink resources into maintaining something that is almost never used. For the specific use case of showing RSS and Atom feeds in the…

The sites that will be broken are disproportionately important though. Congress.gov/govinfo.gov, weather.gov, europa.gov, plus dozens of sites for libraries, and universities.

Looking only at how many sites use a feature gives you an incomplete view. If a feature were only used by Wikipedia, it'd still be inappropriate to deprecate it with a breaking change and a short (1yr) migration window. You work with the important users to retire it and then start pulling the plug publicly to notify everyone you might have missed.

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#158
"The WHATWG aim is to turn the Web into an application delivery platform, a profit-making machine for corporations where the computer (and the browser through it) are a means for them to make money off you rather than for you to gain access to services you may be interested in."

"Such vision is in direct contrast with that of the Web as a repository of knowledge, a vast vault of interconnected documents whose value emerges from organic connections, personalization, variety, curation and user control. But who in the WHATWG today would defend such vision?"

"Maybe what we need is a new browser war. Not one of corporation versus corporation -doubly more so when all currently involved parties are allied in their efforts to enclose the Web than in fostering an open and independent one- but one of users versus corporations, a war to take back control of the Web and its tools."

It should be up to the www user not the web developer to determine how they prefer the documents to appear on their screen

Contrast this with one or a few software programs, i.e, essentially a predetermined selection (no choice), that purport to offer all possible preferences to all www users, i.e., the so-called "modern" browser. These programs are distributed by companies that sell ad services and their business partners (Mozilla)

Documents can be published in a "neutral" format, JSON or whatever, and users can choose to convert this, if desired, to whatever format they prefer. This is more or less the direction the web has taken however at present the conversion is generally being performed by web developers using (frequently obfuscated) Javascript, intended to be outside the control of the user

Although from a technical standpoint, there is nothing that requires (a) document retrieval and (b) document display to be performed by the same program, commercial interests have tried to force users toward using one program for everything (a "do everything program")^1

When users run "do everything programs" from companies selling ad services and their business partners to perform both (a) and (b), they end up receiving "documents" they never requested (ads) and getting tracked

If users want such "do everything" corporate browsers, if they prefer "do everything programs", then they are free to choose them, but there should be other choices and it should be illegal to discriminate against other software as long as rules of "netiquette" are followed. A requirement to use some "do everything program" is not a valid rule

"There's more to the Internet than the World Wide Web built around the HTTP protocol and the HTML file format. There used to be a lot of the Internet beyond the Web, and while much of it still remains as little more than a shadow of the past, largely eclipsed by the Web and what has been built on top of it (not all of it good) outside of some modest revivals, there's also new parts of it that have tried to learn from the past, and build towards something different."

Internet subscribers pay a relatively high price for access in many countries

According to one RFC author the www became the "the new waist"

But to use expensive internet access only for "the web", especially a 100% commercial, obsessively surveilled one filled with ads, is also a "waste", IMHO

1. Perhaps the opposite of "do one thing well". America's top trillionaire wants to create another of these "do everything programs", one to rule them all. These "do everything programs" will always exist but they should never be the only viable options. They should never be "required"

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#159
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been plenty of browsers that were not part of a big company, either for part or all of their history. They don't tend to have massive market share, in part because browsers are amazingly complex and when they break, users get pissed because their browsing is affected. Even the browsers created by individuals or small groups don't have, as far as I've ever seen, a "servant-oriented mindset": like all softwa…

Both of those are strategies aimed at capturing a niche market segment in hopes of attracting them away from the big browsers.

I guess? I don't get the sense that when the Opera devs added torrents a couple decades ago, they were necessarily doing it to steal users so much as because the developers thought it was a useful feature.

But it doesn't really make a difference to my broader point that browser devs have never had "servant-mindset"

Re: Google is killing the open web, part 2

#160
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The culture of the web was "the owners are those who run the web sites, the servants are the software that provides an entry point to the web (read or publish or both)". This is an attempt to rewrite history. Early browser like NCSA Mosaic were never even released as Open Source Software. Netscape Navigator made headlines by offering a free version for academic or non-profit use, but they wanted to charge as much a…

The web wasn’t the browser it was the protocols.

Most of the protocol specs were written retroactively to match functionality that browsers were already using in the wild.
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