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Being poor vs. being broke

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Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#711

Post by abustamam »

quails8mydog wrote: post #698
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why that comment got downvoted. I guess that "income inequality" is the Boogeyman Du Jour . I'm unhappy with it, but it is also a lot harder to address, than hardcore poverty. A popular thing for people to do, is wring their hands and complain about problems that can't be solved, while ignoring the ones that can be addressed. Fighting poverty is going to be tough, but fighting income inequality would be orde…

Maybe splitting them is helpful, but why would you have to do them sequentially? Many of the things that reduce income inequality also help reduce poverty. Poverty isn't "low-hanging fruit" and it's something people have been trying to eradicate longer than we've been alive. Saying "let's not even think about B until we've 100% sorted A" is just a way to ensure B never gets done.

I think I gave the impression that we should tackle them sequentially with my comment. My point was that I don't think it's controversial to eradicate poverty, but for whatever reason it is controversial to eradicate income inequality. We don't need to tackle them sequentially but we also don't need to wait for a silver policy bullet that solves income inequality while we try to solve poverty as well. It may be possible to do both, but in the event it's impossible to do B at least we can still try to do A.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#712

Post by prewett »

closetohome wrote: post #218
zarl wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people in America who do not have electricity or even running water in their homes. This is just not true. America has many problems but access to electricity/running water simply is not one of them.

It's less an issue of access than affordability. The term is "energy insecurity" - https://www.energypolicy.columbia.edu/publications/energy-in...

"Energy insecurity" transforms the problem from lack of "energy" into an emotional problem. The problem isn't feelings of insecurity, it's lacking electricity. But now we can feel all self-righteous that we're making people feel better because we don't call them homeless and hungry and in the dark. Now they "have housing insecurity" and "have food insecurity" and are suffering from "energy insecurity".

I lived for a month in a dorm in China quite a few years ago, where they had running water for an hour every other day. Hot water for tea was delivered in a thermos every morning. Nobody had "heated water insecurity". Everyone knew exactly how it worked, and they all showered two or three to a shower. I couldn't bring myself to do that, so I showered after they were all done, usually in cold water. The problem was very clearly lack of hot water, not "insecurity".

I mentored a kid for a few years whose family occasionally couldn't afford meals, so they had "fend for yourself night", where he had to figure out how to get a meal on his own. His problem was not "food insecurity", his problem was that he was hungry. Any "food insecurity" he might have had was distinctly downstream from his lack of food, and would have been entirely eliminated with regular meals.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#713

Post by ido »

ndriscoll wrote: post #629
bccdee wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Americans have a car (in my country this is a luxury) Using this as an example to illustrate a broader point: Most Americans can't afford not to have a car. Public transit in the US is next to non-existent in many places. If you want a job, you probably need a car to drive to work every day. So you take out huge loans to pay for the cheapest car you can find: now your financial situation is precarious because…

To be fair to iPhone point, that's sort of like saying they have a used Gucci bag. A new Motorola phone is cheaper than a 5 year old used iPhone ($130 for a new 2024 moto g vs ~$150-200 for an iPhone 12). A used Motorola is even cheaper (sub $100). Apple has always been a luxury brand. It's basically trivial next to housing, but I still can't imagine buying an Apple product.

I'll have to think harder to come up with the exact number, but I've had approximately 3 Android phones and 3 iPhones in my smartphone-career (changed phones more often in the beginning than at the end).

iPhones just last longer (and retain value a lot longer), even when compared to high end Androids (I did research online & bought the recommended brands at the time, like Google Pixel). I currently use an iPhone 11 (6 years old model at the moment, bought slightly-used a few years ago when it was a fairly new model) and have no plan to replace it anytime soon.

It is however very much a "rich people can afford to save money" boots-type situation.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#714

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

carlosjobim wrote: post #645
carlosjobim wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it. Everybody gets it. For some months, even years. But after a decade or so in such a situation, you must arrive at some sort of epiphany, look at your life and say "what the fuck?". And I don't think anybody is arguing that people shouldn't get help to get back on their feet. Rather that some people refuse to get back on their feet.

Unfortunately hackers made sure that the only reply below written by somebody who has actually been homeless was [flagged] and [dead]. That's the prevailing attitude towards poverty among the intellectuals. "Let's talk about them, not with them." So I'll reply here, since I can't reply to a [dead]: > And then what? You're 54 years old. No degree. No work history. Criminal conviction for drug possession. You're mental…

> Unfortunately hackers made sure that the only reply below written by somebody who has actually been homeless was [flagged] and [dead].

I't been my experience* that HN folks don't like reality, practicum, and personal experience. They mostly like abstractions and theory.

*See what I did, there?

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#715

Post by seba_dos1 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #714
carlosjobim wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately hackers made sure that the only reply below written by somebody who has actually been homeless was [flagged] and [dead]. That's the prevailing attitude towards poverty among the intellectuals. "Let's talk about them, not with them." So I'll reply here, since I can't reply to a [dead]: > And then what? You're 54 years old. No degree. No work history. Criminal conviction for drug possession. You're mental…

> Unfortunately hackers made sure that the only reply below written by somebody who has actually been homeless was [flagged] and [dead]. I't been my experience * that HN folks don't like reality, practicum, and personal experience. They mostly like abstractions and theory. * See what I did, there?

If you'd be actually experienced, you would realize that there's an autokill filter on HN and the comment in question contains the forbidden M word. Apparently my vouch wasn't enough to resurrect it.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#716

Post by xp84 »

bccdee wrote: post #565
xp84 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I doubt they are. Most people who are on the streets chronically are there because they’ve burned every bridge. Most people have a dozen friends or family who would gladly give them the guest room for a few weeks if they had a job loss that put them at risk of hard times — on the other hand those who mysteriously have zero friends or family usually got that way by the same antisocial behaviors that contributed to…

> who would gladly give them the guest room for a few weeks Yeah, a couple weeks and then what? Couch-surfing is a form of homelessness, and the membrane between sleeping on a couch and sleeping on the street can be very thin, especially when your health makes it unlikely you'll find work in the near future. Something as simple as a concussion can stop you from working for months. > but treating everyone like zero-ag…

> a couple weeks and then what?

Then they need to start supporting themselves. Or at least not strew needles all over the friend’s living room and pawn their valuables to buy more meth.

Most of those friends would settle for just the latter for several months, but the worst cases 100% got kicked out of even family members’ homes for that kind of thing and that’s why they’re on the street.

10 trillion dollars of welfare, free houses, cash, whatever, is not enough to fix addicts who don’t have an insane amount of willpower. Which most people just don’t have. Drugs are mostly the problem. Most non-addicts sleep in their cars and rely on friends for a month or two and get their shit together. “Homelessness” numbers always conflate both kinds: the lost causes and the temporarily homeless.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#717

Post by rcbdev »

antonymoose wrote: post #632
mgraczyk wrote: post #498

Why is it that the 50 year old Pakistani man who just moved here and doesn't speak English seems to be doing so much better than "poor" Americans who complain online all the time. Or the 23 year old dishwasher from Mexico who speaks no English and stopped going to school at age 13 with two kids he's supporting in a small apartment Sure they struggle but they seem to do a lot better than a lot of the 25 year old colle…

Well, if you grew up with a certain standard of living and you went off and did the right things and studied the right subjects and got the good jobs - only to find out you cannot achieve anything close to what your parents and grandparents have l, there is a certain part of you that’s going to be resentful and hurt and angry. As others have said “Happiness = Reality - Expectations.” For the Pakistani or Mexican man…

Reading your comment as a foreigner is crazy - I don't even claim to understand half of your situation. What is so bad about living in another county? Did your county look like it does now when your parents bought property there? Maybe back in the day, they would've rather lived somewhere else and couldn't afford it?

You make enough money to afford rent on a small villa in very livable parts of the United States - the richest nation on earth - as far as I an tell. How can you, or anyone else, be bitter about such a situation?

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#718

Post by rkomorn »

rcbdev wrote: post #717
antonymoose wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you grew up with a certain standard of living and you went off and did the right things and studied the right subjects and got the good jobs - only to find out you cannot achieve anything close to what your parents and grandparents have l, there is a certain part of you that’s going to be resentful and hurt and angry. As others have said “Happiness = Reality - Expectations.” For the Pakistani or Mexican man…

Reading your comment as a foreigner is crazy - I don't even claim to understand half of your situation. What is so bad about living in another county? Did your county look like it does now when your parents bought property there? Maybe back in the day, they would've rather lived somewhere else and couldn't afford it? You make enough money to afford rent on a small villa in very livable parts of the United States - th…

> How can you, or anyone else, be bitter about such a situation?

They're not bitter about the situation.

They're bitter about the degradation of their situation relative to their parents' or grandparents' situations.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#719

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #715
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately hackers made sure that the only reply below written by somebody who has actually been homeless was [flagged] and [dead]. I't been my experience * that HN folks don't like reality, practicum, and personal experience. They mostly like abstractions and theory. * See what I did, there?

If you'd be actually experienced, you would realize that there's an autokill filter on HN and the comment in question contains the forbidden M word. Apparently my vouch wasn't enough to resurrect it.

Makes sense (I run showdead=no, so I never saw the original), but that doesn’t make my comment any less accurate. We all see this stuff happen on a regular basis.

A long discussion is going on, with people flinging poo, back and forth, and one comment appears, from someone actually in the industry/organization being discussed, or by someone with very relevant direct experience, and that comment gets immediately dogpiled; often by both sides. It’s happened to me, a couple of times. I’ve learned to just stay out of these shitfests, even if they are embarrassingly offbase.

With this kind of emotionally-charged, nontechnical topic, it’s even worse than things like OS or methodology dogma battles.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#720

Post by mlrtime »

HalcyonCowboy wrote: post #613
mlrtime wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> majority of personal bankruptcies in the US being caused by medical expense I see this said over and over without actual unbiased stats. As quick google search tells me it's not. I don't blame you for saying it, it's just said so casually and it seems true but isn't.

Thanks for being skeptical, looked it up because of that. Looks like the primary study people cite is this one, which indicates around 65% of people filing for bankruptcy cite a medical contributor of their bankruptcy. That includes medical bills (highest contributor overall) and loss of income due to medical issues. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ I’d like to see what information you have that’s di…

Loss of income is #1 with medical being close #2.

https://www.debt.org/bankruptcy/statistics/

78% cited loss of income.

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