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Being poor vs. being broke

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Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#681

Post by xenospn »

fouc wrote: post #515
dijit wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it’s not terribly uncommon even in the UK to be generationally unemployable. Homelife being bad = bad grades bad grades = no support for further education no basic (or further) education = disadvantage in entry jobs no experience in entry jobs = red flag for employers (even for other entry level jobs in future where better educated folks fresh from school are also applying). The larger the gap, the bigger the red fla…

It's amazing how much upward mobility software development has provided to countless people that didn't finish high school or university.

Story of my life.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#682

Post by Survived »

hippo22 wrote: post #622
bccdee wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've even thought about this for 30 seconds. > If it could easily fetch more money, it would have been bid higher than £50. Have you ever been to one of these auctions? I haven't. If I want a used vehicle, I go to a trusted dealership. Few people attend auctions, hence demand is low, hence prices are low. When there's no incentive to sell something for what it's worth, the seller will put in less effo…

The point is that, before the bike was collected and put up for auction, the debtor could have sold the bike to pay the debts. Then, once the bike was put up for auction, buyers could have bid on it if it was really worth more. Multiple people in this story had a financial incentive to profit from the bike, yet no one did. The only evidence we have of the bike's value is OP's claim. Does it not seem more likely that…

Dude, some skeezy used car salesman type bought the bike and made a 350 pound profit.

Literally no one involved cared about getting the best price except the bottom-feeders attending the auction.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#683

Post by paulryanrogers »

ndriscoll wrote: post #629
bccdee wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Americans have a car (in my country this is a luxury) Using this as an example to illustrate a broader point: Most Americans can't afford not to have a car. Public transit in the US is next to non-existent in many places. If you want a job, you probably need a car to drive to work every day. So you take out huge loans to pay for the cheapest car you can find: now your financial situation is precarious because…

To be fair to iPhone point, that's sort of like saying they have a used Gucci bag. A new Motorola phone is cheaper than a 5 year old used iPhone ($130 for a new 2024 moto g vs ~$150-200 for an iPhone 12). A used Motorola is even cheaper (sub $100). Apple has always been a luxury brand. It's basically trivial next to housing, but I still can't imagine buying an Apple product.

A smart phone is increasingly required to do things like banking, pay bills, order things.

I live within a bike ride of a lot of places, but it would still add up to hours more a week. And for 3 months of the year there's ice and snow that are rough on the equipment.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#684

Post by dataflow »

dijit wrote: post #680
dataflow wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense, but I was trying to figure out something else: if there's someone in this situation I want to help, what (at minimum) could I expect to have to do to get them out of that situation?

I think a better way of thinking about it is to be a lifeline instead of monetary amount. Otherwise you very much risk wandering in to social services, and managing this can be unfair too. If you really want to hold me to a number, then each country has a “poverty index” of some form, if you are able to assist with a roof over someones head and provide them with as much as needed to be over the poverty line, then you…

Thank you!

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#685

Post by zahlman »

Atlas667 wrote: post #677
zahlman wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whose goal? Seriously. The goal of classical liberalism, obviously. > My claim is that liberalism is contradictory because it does not contain a class analysis. It uses the language of true equality but it cannot guarantee it. Classical liberalism understands the word "equality" to mean something different from what you think it means. > Did you read the article? I'm referring to your analysis, so the article is ir…

Wait, I'm talking about liberalism and classical/social liberalism as extensions of that. Im referring to the overarching philosophy and parts of its derivatives. >I'm referring to your analysis, so the article is irrelevant. You didnt read it. I said that the group of ideas that are talked about in the article belong to liberalism, the philosophy. That they are derived from philosophical liberalism, the overarching…

> You didnt read it.

I did, and it's against guidelines to make such a charge anyway.

The article is irrelevant to the point your making. There is nothing it could say, in principle, that would rescue your argument.

Because your argument is of the form "liberalism says X", but liberalism does not, in fact, say X.

Therefore, whether

> the group of ideas that are talked about in the article belong to liberalism, the philosophy.

is completely irrelevant.

> I am specifically saying

And you are incorrect in this.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#686

Post by goodreadz »

dijit wrote: post #125

Even this does a poor job of explaining being poor. The constant open loop on everything you own, terrified to discard anything even if its broken because there are components that might be useful to fix something else; the constant churn of second-hand (and cheap/disposable) things that are already close to death before they come into your possession and- crucially: the crushing weight of knowing that any financial…

I recently got yelled at by a schizophrenic homeless man with serious anger issues that was hungry. And he’s better off than a large percentage of the world. Poor is relational.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#687

Post by Atlas667 »

zahlman wrote: post #685
Atlas667 wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, I'm talking about liberalism and classical/social liberalism as extensions of that. Im referring to the overarching philosophy and parts of its derivatives. >I'm referring to your analysis, so the article is irrelevant. You didnt read it. I said that the group of ideas that are talked about in the article belong to liberalism, the philosophy. That they are derived from philosophical liberalism, the overarching…

> You didnt read it. I did, and it's against guidelines to make such a charge anyway. The article is irrelevant to the point your making. There is nothing it could say, in principle, that would rescue your argument. Because your argument is of the form "liberalism says X", but liberalism does not , in fact, say X. Therefore, whether > the group of ideas that are talked about in the article belong to liberalism, the p…

Pfffff, you're basically saying "you're not saying anything relevant", but never actually contributing anything to the conversation.

Alright lets do an exercise...

Please look at any of the widely accepted tenets of liberalism. Okay? Got em? Keep them in mind for this next part...

Now I will distill my argument into one sentence for you:

I claim this article is a critique of the widespread notion that it is possible to figuratively "pull yourself up by your bootstraps", I claim that this notion is founded on the assumption that liberalism has attained its goals or that it is in progress of that.

And I promise you that if you put an ounce of effort you can see what I'm saying. In fact I'll help you more.

"Pull yourself up by your bootstrap" people are either in a financially stable position or support the status quo. They use this phrase to signify that, through a liberal lens of liberty, you are wholly responsible for your condition, and not only that, but that you should be capable of such feat BY VIRTUE OF the benefits bestowed upon you by a liberal economy/country. These benefits that they claim ARE the tenets of liberalism, such as: the right to private property, political equality, rule of law, freedom of assembly, economic freedom, etc.

Do you see? This is, fundamentally, a critique of liberalism.

Please don't reply if you don't have anything to contribute.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#688

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

abustamam wrote: post #662
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #15

I like this guy’s backstory[0]. I grew up in Africa. The poverty I saw, as a child, was foundational in my own personal development. There are some places in the US, that have that kind of poverty, but I have not seen them, with my own eyes. I have family that dedicated most of their life to fighting poverty (with very limited success). They believe that poverty is probably the single biggest problem in the world, to…

> Income inequality is one thing, but hardcore poverty, as described by the author, is a different beast This is something I never thought of but certainly rings true. The left always talks about income inequality and poverty as if they are one and the same. And then rebuttal almost always rebut against income inequality (or being "broke") and not poverty. By conflating the two, we're throwing the baby out with the b…

Not sure why that comment got downvoted. I guess that "income inequality" is the Boogeyman Du Jour.

I'm unhappy with it, but it is also a lot harder to address, than hardcore poverty.

A popular thing for people to do, is wring their hands and complain about problems that can't be solved, while ignoring the ones that can be addressed.

Fighting poverty is going to be tough, but fighting income inequality would be orders of magnitude more difficult, because of the entrenched and powerful folks with investment in the status quo.

If we split them, we can deal with the "low-hanging fruit" of poverty, maybe even leveraging the vast resources of the very rich, who might be more willing to help, if they didn't see it as a threat.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#689

Post by userulluipeste »

itake wrote: post #486
mehulashah wrote: post #92

He right. I’ve seen poverty in India, but I misunderstood it. There was a 12 year old kid who guided our boat down the Narmada after we spread my Dads ashes. He was not in school because he wanted money. I told him I’d pay him double and continue to pay him for his days work, if he’d go back to school during the day and only row boats at night. He said no. Just give me what you owe me. He had no hope that education i…

My experience with the kids working in Laos was similar but I have a different interpretation. Your answer was through the eyes of an adult. 12 year olds dont have concept of money. What is a lot of money or why they need to go to school. Asking a 12 year old to understand the value of money and education and life is not fair to the child. What’s actually going on, at least in Laos, is the parents are directing the k…

It is also that, at 12 years of age, that kid may have had enough of harsh life lessons already, like when he was promised something instead of being rewarded on the spot and later it turned out he was just being tricked. I imagine that something like that may have had a much more direct impact on his OP described decision - that hard earned "street smarts" keeping him grounded in his (undesirable) reality.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#690

Post by dangus »

Aeolun wrote: post #577

I feel like the author tells us that being poor means worrying about problems you can’t fix all the time? Or at least, that you believe you can never fix them? If you don’t have the $300 for the own part repair on your truck, there’s no point in worrying about it. If you truck breaks it breaks, it’s never going to recover unless you think of something else. Complaining that you don’t have $300 for even the home repai…

How do you get to work if your car/truck breaks? 95% of American commuters are using personal vehicles.

“Fixing your car” is just one example and not anywhere close to the worst imaginable one.

“Just don’t worry about skipping meals”

“Just don’t worry about that abscess”

“Just don’t worry about getting evicted”

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