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Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

elifesciences.org

31–40 of 101 posts

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is a fairly simple question. The answer to it should be simple too. "Is P equal to NP" is also a simple question.

The answer should be simple, too -- either yes or no. OP did not imply proving it would be simple.

I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to claim your 1 million dollars from the Clay Mathematics Institute by just answering yes or no.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#32

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

What policy implications? Obviously wealth, class, race, nationality, and genetics are all highly heritable, what's one more twig on the pile of the birth lottery?

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#33

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

This would require that it's a one-way door, where bad circumstances persist indefinitely across generations but good circumstances don't. It would also require that to not stretch back too far, since bad circumstances were rather universal before the modern age.

In order for this supposed oddly specific effect to have policy implications, it would have to be simple to identify which individuals are impacted and by how much. And it would have to be impossible to identify such individuals except by looking at their family history.

And there would have to be some policy action that is uniquely beneficial to those people.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#34
post #32

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

What policy implications? Obviously wealth, class, race, nationality, and genetics are all highly heritable, what's one more twig on the pile of the birth lottery?

This sort of thing is always a call for generational guilt and reparations.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#35
Epigenetics is one of those things that seems wild until you pull the camera back a bit. A cell is affected by and responds to its surroundings - this is not controversial. In eukaryotes, this is usually done by way of altering gene expression - up- or down-regulation by means of chemical markers on the cell’s DNA which are created or removed by enzymes which are activated or deactivated by certain substances in the cell or its environment - in other words, the cell’s environment affects gene regulation within the cell by traceable mechanisms*. All cells, save at least one, are descendent of other cells, and cells split by meiosis, in which the chemical environment within and without the cell is shared by the “descendent” cell - so of course this happens with human embryos as well. Of course the expression of your genes is affected by what happened to your parents (well, your mother, at least), because gene expression is affected by what happens to a cell and you are made up of a lineage of cells descended from your mother’s cells. If you ask how one organism could be affected by something it didn’t experience, sure, that could be a quandary, but looking at a line of cells and wondering how later ones could be affected by environmental pressures on earlier ones isn’t nearly as much of a mystery, and we’re all just extended cell lineages.

(As if first time mothers didn’t have enough to worry about - stop stressing so much, it could lead to long-lasting irreversible changes to your fetus!)

* Standard biology disclaimers: this is not the only way this happens, this varies across species and time, nature has no master plan. “Some of the time some genes have some amount of their expression modified somewhat by some mechanisms that are somewhat responsive to some part of the cell’s environment sometimes.”

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#36
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been aruably a more serious blow to the pure Darwinian evolution (this is all epigenetics, after all): non-random occurrence of useful mutations in populations exposed to particular diseases. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40854136/

I don’t really see that as anti-Darwinian. Those genes successfully attach themselves to a new organism and provide advantages such that they are selected for in the population.

The selection is classical, but the mutations are supposed to be random, not skewed towards more useful genetic variants. One can speculate that a purely random (and otherwise neutral, say) prior mutation led to this directionality, but the actual resulting mechanism is AFAIK still unknown.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#37

So Lamarck wasn't entirely incorrect either. Darwin would have been fascinated by these results.

Even if this was going to hold up, it wouldn't make the policies that Lamarck's ideas were designed to promote work. We already empirically know they don't work.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#38

If it's inheritable wouldn't that make it by definition genetic?

I think that nowadays "gene" refers only to a subset of a nucleic acid. Sequences of ACTG (or ACUG in the case of RNA) only, and only in that organism's chromosomes. If you inherit a virus from your mother, for instance, I think most would call that non-genetic inheritance, even though viruses have genes too. Same goes for methyl and acetyl markers, transcription factors, nutrients, toxins, and whatever else comes al…

Got it. I had thought that actual genes were only a part of what was considered "genetics."

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#39
post #35

Epigenetics is one of those things that seems wild until you pull the camera back a bit. A cell is affected by and responds to its surroundings - this is not controversial. In eukaryotes, this is usually done by way of altering gene expression - up- or down-regulation by means of chemical markers on the cell’s DNA which are created or removed by enzymes which are activated or deactivated by certain substances in the…

>>> (As if first time mothers didn’t have enough to worry about - stop stressing so much, it could lead to long-lasting irreversible changes to your fetus!)

This is plainly not plausible. "Irreversible" doesn't play well with the length of time humans have been a thing.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#40
post #35

Epigenetics is one of those things that seems wild until you pull the camera back a bit. A cell is affected by and responds to its surroundings - this is not controversial. In eukaryotes, this is usually done by way of altering gene expression - up- or down-regulation by means of chemical markers on the cell’s DNA which are created or removed by enzymes which are activated or deactivated by certain substances in the…

>>> (As if first time mothers didn’t have enough to worry about - stop stressing so much, it could lead to long-lasting irreversible changes to your fetus!) This is plainly not plausible. "Irreversible" doesn't play well with the length of time humans have been a thing.

Ask a parent what they hear when they hear “irreversible” in conjunction with their child. I promise nobody mistook that for “until the heat death of the universe,” but I can add a note if you really think it’s warranted.
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