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Being poor vs. being broke

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Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#501

Post by jaredhallen »

fredgrott wrote: post #143

One of the common myths is... If repairing auto at shop costs $1000 one should op out to spend $300 in parts and own labor..... Paying for the wrong utility makes you remain poor as the down car repair has a very low utility to you earning that higher wage while the shop repairs your car. It would only make high value utility sense if you did that several times and then open your own car repair shop as business owner…

That only makes sense if you have the opportunity to make more money than you'd be paying the mechanic with the time you spent fixing the car. I'd venture to say that's true less often than not. Even if you day job makes more per hour than you're saving by repairing the car, it doesn't necessarily mean you can just choose to book more hours on the job. To make it more concrete, let's use the given example. Let's say the repair is $300 in parts, and $700 in labor. Let's call the shop rate $100/hour, to be conservative. So in order for it to make sense for me financially, I have to a) have a job that makes at least $100/hour and b) have the choice to work an extra 7 hours.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#502

Post by Atlas667 »

zahlman wrote: post #461
Atlas667 wrote: post #63

This is talking about philosophical liberalism. It's the official ideology of capitalist countries, to think that were all equal in the eyes of the govt and if youre not on the same economic level it must be cause you're fundamentally different/flawed. It's a type of thinking that does not take into consideration peoples material reality (even their own) and manifests as narcissism and egotism in those who employ thi…

> to think that were all equal in the eyes of the govt This is a goal, not a claim. > and if youre not on the same economic level it must be cause you're fundamentally different/flawed. This is a complete non sequitur, and is nothing like classical liberal thought.

> This is a goal, not a claim.

Whose goal? Seriously. My claim is that liberalism is contradictory because it does not contain a class analysis. It uses the language of true equality but it cannot guarantee it.

>This is a complete non sequitur, and is nothing like classical liberal thought.

Did you read the article? The vein here is that liberalism, the official ideology of capital, is what is used to engage with analyzing other peoples lives. They use the tennets of liberalism to judge what others make of themselves. They use the myth of free markets, they use the myth of equality under law, they use the myth of economic freedom, they use the myth of liberty and justice for all. People who thrive or support the status quo idealize the material conditions in the world. That reasoning gets passed onto the poor. It is essentially an ideology of the rich.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#503

Post by prmph »

kelvinjps10 wrote: post #290
jandrewrogers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is an element of "right country, right time" when it comes to being able to escape poverty with hard work and grit, though hard work and grit always helps. I am extremely fortunate to have been born in the US. My outcome would have been vastly harder to achieve almost anywhere else. Even in the US it was far from certain.

I'm immigrant that come to the us and always that the Americans complain is hardd to understand, like for example inflation they complain about being 3% in my country there was hyperinflation 1000%, also I didn't use to have running water(water would come every 3 days) and electricity would stop working every few days and it would take several hours or days to get fixed. then working here there is so many jobs and yo…

It's not so much the absolute amount you have, but rather your situation in comparison with your country men.

Yes, I know what 3rd-world poverty looks like, but, in a sense health care is more accessible to poor people in 3rd-world countries than in some advanced countries (e.g., US). Also, the morale-destroying aspect of poverty hits harder in advanced countries, because people assume you're poor because of what TFA talks about: being lazy, dumb, etc.

Poverty exists people think it ought to, that's the simple reason it exists. People think a world where some deemed unworthy have to experience crushing poverty is a more meaningful world, that's it. Certainly there is absolutely no reason that any person has to go to bed hungry, as a lot more food is produced in the world than is needed.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#504

Post by throwaway173738 »

dwedge wrote: post #364
dijit wrote: post #125

Even this does a poor job of explaining being poor. The constant open loop on everything you own, terrified to discard anything even if its broken because there are components that might be useful to fix something else; the constant churn of second-hand (and cheap/disposable) things that are already close to death before they come into your possession and- crucially: the crushing weight of knowing that any financial…

> its not uncommon to have the few worthwhile items you own being seized by bailifs to recoup debts, treasured heirlooms that cannot be replaced and have little monetary value so they do no impact to your debt. The hoarding of canned goods to avoid being unable to eat. As a teenager I worked at a bailiffs in the office typing up the paperwork. One case that stuck was me was where the debtor owed somewhere around £400…

It’s like a bunch of apes took over our society and worked as hard as possible to make everything as cruel as possible for no particular reason.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#505

Post by throwaway173738 »

ASalazarMX wrote: post #267
ztetranz wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find myself doing that. I'm not sure if it's just a silly habit I have because I don't like to run out of anything even if it is not important or if I picked it up from my dad who lived through the "great" depression as a child.

Conversely, I had an acquaintance that grew poor, and would finish 95% of the cookies in a bag, but always leave the almost empty bag to the next person to find out, even if it had to stay that way for months. Strangely, she did that only with comfort foods.

My wife grew up very poor and does the same stuff. And then she’ll get mad at me if I finish the stale cookie from 6 months ago.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#506

Post by chemotaxis »

hexator wrote: post #37

Understanding poverty starts with empathy. People thinking that "poor is a mindset" are lacking in that. It's not that simple! You can't just mind your way out of poverty! This isn't a math problem.

> Understanding poverty starts with empathy.

Yes, but understanding the other mindset you're referring to requires some empathy too.

There are three paths to poverty: by birth, by bad luck, and by some definition of choice. No one chooses to be poor, of course, but we all have that school friend or a distant relative who consistently made bad decisions (drugs, gambling, skipping school, excess spending, terrible relationship choices, etc) and ended up in a bad spot more or less as a consequence of that.

Individuals who think that all poor people only have themselves to blame are bozos, but pretending that no one ever bears personal responsibility for poverty is wrong too. If we're "schooling" someone who has a personal story like that, we're not going to make them see the light.

A better position is to say that yes, sometimes people mess up, but it's good for the society as a whole to improve the outcomes for "at-fault" crowd too. This requires tailoring the solutions, because not everything can be solved with cash.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#507

Post by janalsncm »

antisthenes wrote: post #227
janalsncm wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luck really can’t be overstated imo. I was genuinely just lucky to be interested in computer programming as a teenager. I wasn’t thinking about careers, I just wanted to make games. If my interest was basketball my life would have been very different.

You were lucky to have the genetics that allowed you to have cognitive capabilities to understand computers and programming. Many people don't and never will. There is always a bottom % of people who are under the cognitive capacity to meaningfully contribute to society. That doesn't mean they are bad people, but they will always be poor/broke. Ranting about this is just ranting about human nature. Life isn't fair, s…

I take your broader point. I didn’t choose my genetics, my parents, or the conditions I was raised in. That’s why I don’t believe in moralizing social class.

I do believe in the idea of meritocracy and competition in general to motivate people. We are far from a meritocratic society unfortunately.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#508

Post by spwa4 »

mgraczyk wrote: post #498

Why is it that the 50 year old Pakistani man who just moved here and doesn't speak English seems to be doing so much better than "poor" Americans who complain online all the time. Or the 23 year old dishwasher from Mexico who speaks no English and stopped going to school at age 13 with two kids he's supporting in a small apartment Sure they struggle but they seem to do a lot better than a lot of the 25 year old colle…

Because humans compare against their previous situation. If humans don't advance against their previous situation and against their peers, even very slowly is enough but if they don't, best of luck motivating them to do anything.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#509

Post by throwaway173738 »

pigpag wrote: post #432
bashmelek wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live comfortably in the United States. I consider myself middle class. I worry about my job and increasing costs. But I’m okay. I do feel like that we really could end global poverty if we tried, and that people like me ought to contribute.

Not all poverty is created equal. Some people had good financial discipline and still fell into poverty due to business catastrophes, accidents or health problems. We need better systems to provide shields for those people, be it bankruptcy laws, universal insurance or healthcare. Others live in unhabitable environments that can never sustain a viable economy. Until humanity finds technologies to address those enviro…

I’d say 99% of the poor are in the first two categories. So I don’t really care if the third category gets some stuff too if it means we help everyone else.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#510

Post by spwa4 »

prmph wrote: post #503
kelvinjps10 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm immigrant that come to the us and always that the Americans complain is hardd to understand, like for example inflation they complain about being 3% in my country there was hyperinflation 1000%, also I didn't use to have running water(water would come every 3 days) and electricity would stop working every few days and it would take several hours or days to get fixed. then working here there is so many jobs and yo…

It's not so much the absolute amount you have, but rather your situation in comparison with your country men. Yes, I know what 3rd-world poverty looks like, but, in a sense health care is more accessible to poor people in 3rd-world countries than in some advanced countries (e.g., US). Also, the morale-destroying aspect of poverty hits harder in advanced countries, because people assume you're poor because of what TFA…

> health care is more accessible to poor people in 3rd-world countries than in some advanced countries (e.g., US).

Do you seriously believe it's even remotely comparable? In 3rd-world countries even basic healthcare is totally inaccessible unless someone in your family is at the top level of government. If you're a worker or in a worker family even glasses are probably almost impossible to get.

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