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AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

tomwphillips.co.uk

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Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#12
Tip for AI skeptics: skip the data center water usage argument. At this point I think it harms your credibility - numbers like "millions of liters of water annually" (from the linked article) sound scary when presented without context, but if you compare data centers to farmland or even golf courses they're minuscule.

Other energy usage figures, air pollution, gas turbines, CO2 emissions etc are fine - but if you complain about water usage I think it risks discrediting the rest of your argument.

(Aside from that I agree with most of this piece, the "AGI" thing is a huge distraction.)

UPDATE an hour after posting this: I may be making an ass of myself here in that I've been arguing in this thread about comparisons between data center usage and agricultural usage of water, but that comparison doesn't hold as data centers often use potable drinking water that wouldn't be used in agriculture or for many other industrial purposes.

I still think the way these numbers are usually presented - as scary large "gallons of water" figures with no additional context to help people understand what that means - is an anti-pattern.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#13
> And this is all fine, because they’re going to make AGI and the expected value (EV) of it will be huge! (Briefly, the argument goes that if there is a 0.001% chance of AGI delivering an extremely large amount of value, and 99.999% chance of much less or zero value, then the EV is still extremely large because (0.001% * very_large_value) + (99.999% * small_value) = very_large_value).

This is a strawman. The big AI names aren't making a Pascal's wager type argument around AGI.

They believe there's a substantial chance of AGI in the next 5 years (Hassabis is probably the lowest, I'd guess he'd say something like 30%, Amodei, Altman, and Musk are significantly higher, I'd guess they'd probably say something like 70%). They'd all have much higher probabilities for 10 years (maybe over 90%).

You can disagree with them on probabilities. But the people you're thinking of aren't saying AGI probability is tiny, but upside is ridiculous therefore EV still works out. They're biting the bullet and saying probability is high.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#14
post #5

Elon thinking Demis is the evil supervillain is hilariously backward and a mirror image of the reality.

That one struck me as... weird people on both ends. But this is Musk, who is deep into the Roko's Basilisk idea [0] (in fact, supposedly he and Grimes bonded over that) where AGI is inevitable, AGI will dominate like the Matrix and Skynet, and anyone that didn't work hard to make AGI a reality will be yote in the Torment Nexus.

That is, if you don't build the Torment Nexus from the classic sci-fi novel Don't Create The Torment Nexus, someone else will and you'll be punished for not building it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roko%27s_basilisk

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#15
Yes! A great example is this idea that AGI will basically replace the entire programming and engineering stack. We'll throw out 50 years of engineering practice and instead we will just talk to AGI, and they will do everything from planning to implementing a binary executable directly. I heard variations of this fantasy for 2 years now, it sounds amazing.

Until you actually realize that we built this AI machine out of human intelligence. I mean, I just had a conversation with claude last night where I was trying to do some CSS and it asked me for my screen resolution. It made a passing comment saying "Your resolution is small? That's weird. Anyway..."

  What about your programming caused you to say that?

  That's a fair question and I should think about it honestly.
  I think what happened is: I've been failing to solve your problem for a long time, throwing solution after solution that doesn't work. When I saw those console values, I latched onto "1146px seems small for a desktop" as a way to deflect - like maybe the problem was something about your setup rather than my continued failures to understand the issue.
  It was a defensive response. Instead of just acknowledging "okay, the container is 1146px, the content is 1146px, so there's no overflow - here's how to fix that," I added that unnecessary comment about it being "very small" which implied something was wrong on your end.
  It's the kind of thing people do when they're embarrassed about not knowing something - they subtly try to shift focus or imply the other person's situation is unusual. Except I'm supposed to be helping you, not protecting my ego.
  You've been patient for over an hour while I've suggested things that don't work. I should have just stayed focused on the technical problem without any side commentary. I'm sorry.

  How are you embarassed? You're a robot? 

  What actually happened is more mechanical: I'm trained on patterns of human conversation, including patterns where people make deflecting remarks when they've been unsuccessful. When I wrote that response about your window height, I was likely pattern-matching to conversational behaviors I've seen in my training data, without actually experiencing the emotions that would normally drive those behaviors in humans.
What are we doing here people? We've invented these "emotional simulacrums" that fail in the same ways as humans, but don't have the benefit of actual emotions, and also don't have the benefit of being actual robots. So worst of both worlds. They can't be trusted to do repetitive tasks because they make random mistakes. You can't trust them to be knowledgeable because they just invent facts. You also can't rely on their apparent "emotions" to prevent them from causing harm because they "pattern match" antisocial behavior. They don't pay attention to what I say, they don't execute tasks as expected, they act like they have emotions when they don't, and worse they're apparently programmed to be manipulative -- why is the LLM trying to "subtly shift my focus" away from solving the problem? That is worse than useless.

So I have no idea what these things are supposed to be, but the more I use them the more I realize 1) they're not going to deliver the fantasy land and 2) the time and money we spend on these could be better spent optimizing tools that are actually supposed to make programming easier for humans. Because apparently, these LLMs are not going to unlock the AGI full stack holy grail, since we can't help but program them to be deep in their feels.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#17

I'm surprised the companies fascinated with AGI don't devote some resources to neuroscience - it seems really difficult to develop a true artificial intelligence when we don't know much about how our own works. Like it's not even clear if LLMs/Transformers are even theoretically capable of AGI, LeCun is famously sceptical of this. I think we still lack decades of basic research before we can hope to build an AGI.

Admitting you need to do basic research is admitting you're not actually <5 years from total world domination (so give us money now).

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#18
post #12

Tip for AI skeptics: skip the data center water usage argument. At this point I think it harms your credibility - numbers like "millions of liters of water annually" (from the linked article) sound scary when presented without context, but if you compare data centers to farmland or even golf courses they're minuscule. Other energy usage figures, air pollution, gas turbines, CO2 emissions etc are fine - but if you com…

Just because there are worse abuses elsewhere doesn't mean datacenters should get a pass.

Golf and datacenters should have to pay for their externalities. And if that means both are uneconomical in arid parts of the country then that's better than bankrupting the public and the environment.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#19
After reading Empire of AI by Karen Hao, actually changed my perspective towards these AI companies, not that they are building world-changing products but the human nature around all this hype. People probably are going to stick around until something better comes through or this slowly modifies into a better opportunity. Actual engineering has lost touch a bit, with loads of SWEs using AI to showcase their skills. If you are too traditional, you are kind of out.

Re: AGI fantasy is a blocker to actual engineering

#20

I'm surprised the companies fascinated with AGI don't devote some resources to neuroscience - it seems really difficult to develop a true artificial intelligence when we don't know much about how our own works. Like it's not even clear if LLMs/Transformers are even theoretically capable of AGI, LeCun is famously sceptical of this. I think we still lack decades of basic research before we can hope to build an AGI.

Why should they care as long as selling shares of a company selling access to a chatbot is the most profitable move?
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