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European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

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Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#141

Post by ta20240528 »

kogus wrote: post #14
usrnm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone living in the EU, I actually like the current trend.

As an American, I am also gratified to see the EU take steps toward independence from US foreign policy. Independence doesn't mean enmity; it just means that the EU and US should both be adults in the room, reaching decisions on equal terms. If one takes a longer view of things, the period from WW2 to now is very much an anomaly reflecting relative European weakness in the aftermath of that war's physical and moral d…

Damn, are you sure you're an American? :)

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#142

Post by saubeidl »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #138
saubeidl wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is exactly what I mean. In international law, they were treaties. Your internal squabbles do not concern us and just make you look unreliable.

> In international law, they were treaties. Your internal squabbles do not concern us and just make you look unreliable. What a joke everyone knew we didn't ratify them everyone just wanted to pretend. We even send a letter to Iran making sure they knew. The EU especially was funny acting like the agreement had any value when the USA wasn't part of it.

If one branch of your government says A and another branch says B, then that doesn't make other people fools.

It only makes you look like you don't have your shit together.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#143

Post by maxdo »

usrnm wrote: post #8
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone living in the EU, I actually like the current trend.

I hope EU will have a functional army before Russia will attack EU , so that US can withdraw troops from Germany. As much as Europe hate Trump, surely Americans too, he was the first president to force them treat defense seriously. Yet all military forces maybe except Poland are a joke

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#144

Post by kakacik »

nxor wrote: post #30
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

[flagged]

What you mention are your personal anecdotes while being mildly prolific in 2 out of many languages. Where I live, knowing fluently 4 or 5 is the norm and nobody considers themselves an expert on given country, even if its just another European country or even neighbor.

I've been to the US for couple of months working here and there, you folks are fine but I still don't get even after 2+ decades why you end up with such system. I don't mean the strengths, we all know them but the weaknesses which are all roughly solvable if enough focus is spent on them.

Utter disregard for the poor who are there to be exploited for life (or ignored like homeless), completely broken public education and medical system. From European perspective a proper police state - it was the first time I saw fear in faces of regular people from just a police car moving around the corner. Very high criminality of the 'heaviest' type. Also wars, those endless wars and their constant failures - what did Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan change for the better of people there or entire regions, apart from millions of civilians dead?

At the end, what Europeans care about is US politics, rest are details. We and rest of the world judge based on that. How that goes we all see these days.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#145

Post by mongol »

paganel wrote: post #125
Yoric wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think GP means that Europe didn't intervene when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and, more generally, has done its best to limit rearmament until now. And we're going to pay for it by having a war against Russia that we might have avoided had we projected more strength. The precedent being France and UK that were so disgusted by war after WWI (and recall that France was the historical biggest warmonger among Western…

I’m Romanian, write this comment from Bucharest, a lot closer to Donbass than both France and UK. If those guys are “disgusted” about Russia then it’s their choice, but they shouldn’t re-create the Crimean War and battle the Russians on our (Romania’s) soil, with the destruction that would accompany such a war. If anything, I’d rather actively choose Russia’s side on this against the West, at least Russia is the devi…

This surprises me. Is that how you see it, that countries like UK and France may choose to battle Russia on your soil? What would forego that in your scenario?

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#146

Post by ta20240528 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #134
Johnny555 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US is still party to NATO Article 5, meaning the blood of our young people is pledged to be shed to defend, say, Estonia. That has not changed. A treaty is only as good as its enforcement, and if the USA declines to uphold their obligations, who is going to force them?

> A treaty is only as good as its enforcement, and if the USA declines to uphold their obligations, who is going to force them? A mutual defense treaty is no good at all if it needs enforcement; it only works as a coordinating tool between basically-willing parties. When it becomes anything else, well, look at CSTO.

Well, Ukraine joined the US in its invasion of Iraq. Actual boots on the ground.

This has not been reciprocated.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#147

Post by throw-the-towel »

SilverElfin wrote: post #100
barbazoo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of that context I didn’t have, thank you, I should catch up more in that regard. > But mostly because the CCP just can’t be trusted with their power, because they’re neither democratic nor support liberal values like free speech. How do we square this with the US being democratically elected (let’s ignore gerrymandering and absence of one person one vote) but the actions like the upcoming war with Venezuela, bo…

I don’t think we can square it exactly. The US isn’t perfect and has deep issues as well. But it just depends on which values you care about. For me, I think despite problems, the US has a more trustworthy system of democracy than most countries. And as far as democratic values like free speech - it’s far above literally any other country in the world in protecting those rights. These things alone make it special - I…

> Sure it replaced a monarchy, but that monarchy was actually quite liberal and photos of Iran from that era show a culture that was very different from today.

Well duh, pictures of pretty girls from the (very small) upper classes sell better than pictures of the victims of Savak.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#148

Post by Silhouette »

walletdrainer wrote: post #71
lukan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this was quite openly communicated, why germany bought the F35 for example. To still get (nuclear) protection. (with the homebuild Tornados phasing out and the Eurofighter not getting a licence so easy, only the F35 is capable of delivering nukes with german pilots). But I think it was a pretty bad appeasement deal.

The F35 is also just a much better plane.

That's a true claim today. The defence industry moves surprisingly slowly for a field where more advanced technology is such an advantage so it probably will be true for close to another decade as well because Europe has no native fifth gen fighter.

However the story might be different in a decade as sixth gen aircraft like Tempest are entering service and probably other modern technologies like unmanned/autonomous drones and hypersonic and directed energy weapons are more widely deployed. Connectivity between units in the field is also clearly a huge deal that is going to matter more and more and that is going to require a level of interoperability and trust that won't be kind to "partners" who aren't good team players.

On that kind of timescale I expect "buying American" will be much less attractive to most "allies" of the US than it has been for most of the past century and it will show exactly in decisions like who is making and buying whose planes.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#149

Post by bigyabai »

SilverElfin wrote: post #100
barbazoo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of that context I didn’t have, thank you, I should catch up more in that regard. > But mostly because the CCP just can’t be trusted with their power, because they’re neither democratic nor support liberal values like free speech. How do we square this with the US being democratically elected (let’s ignore gerrymandering and absence of one person one vote) but the actions like the upcoming war with Venezuela, bo…

I don’t think we can square it exactly. The US isn’t perfect and has deep issues as well. But it just depends on which values you care about. For me, I think despite problems, the US has a more trustworthy system of democracy than most countries. And as far as democratic values like free speech - it’s far above literally any other country in the world in protecting those rights. These things alone make it special - I…

[flagged]

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#150

Post by throw-the-towel »

kogus wrote: post #14
usrnm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone living in the EU, I actually like the current trend.

As an American, I am also gratified to see the EU take steps toward independence from US foreign policy. Independence doesn't mean enmity; it just means that the EU and US should both be adults in the room, reaching decisions on equal terms. If one takes a longer view of things, the period from WW2 to now is very much an anomaly reflecting relative European weakness in the aftermath of that war's physical and moral d…

But Europe did block the rapprochement with Russia in the 1990s, which the US was trying to achieve. https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-...
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