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The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

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41–50 of 124 posts

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#41
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was struck by how little effort the author put into describing the proposed solution for "the poster child for patents." Is the Atlantic going downhill? How do you let drug companies recoup costs quicker without reducing the oversight that goes into drug approval? I am also a little curious about the free market implications. Instead of the invisible hand guiding drug development we will be relying on government au…

I don't see (har har) an invisible hand guiding commercial pharmaceutical development. I see an oligopoly of pharmaceutical corporations acting out of unenlightened self interest. From my layman's perspective, it seems that curing diseases is largely done by government- and university-funded research, while treating symptoms for profit is the domain of corporate R&D.

It could be, because that isn't how it works :)

An oversimplified summary is that the majority of the pipeline for new drugs is in small companies. When one of these small companies develops a new compound that has an enormous potential market, it is purchased by one of the large companies that has better expertise in distribution and marketing, and can scale up production much more efficiently.

A tremendous amount of funding is put into the development of new drugs, yet it should be no surprise that much of this research produces nothing useful. Innovation anywhere results in hits and misses, yet investors are willing to assume the risk when they believe a certain percentage of success will sufficiently balance out the failures.

In effect, strong property rights allows a modularization of the different roles of drug development.

If people truly believe that there is a problem with the pharmaceutical industry, they should identify what the problem is first, and then unemotionally analyze how they could address those problems.

I tend to believe that there is a general consensus that the growing portion of GDP being devoted to pharmaceuticals is not sustainable, and quite likely already more than it would be in a better optimized economy.

What constrains the demand for pharmaceuticals? If something will save save your life, you may be willing to spend a million dollars on it. However, if you only have a 1/1000 chance of needing something, you may not be willing to spend $1000 on it when you're not under the gun. In order to balance all the many eventualities for potentially needed medical treatment either your government or insurance provider collects and organizes resources for people who need treatment today with the promise that all of the contributors will also receive treatment when needed. How much treatment?

How much treatment is generally determined by whatever is medically necessary. There may be some wiggle room on the definition of medically necessary, but it doesn't matter because this isn't what determines how much medical treatment you receive or might receive. What really determines how much medical treatment you can receive is how much medical treatment is available.

It probably sounds extremely cynical, but the idea of destroying pharmaceutical patents would likely accomplish what it sets out to do. It would dramatically lower expenditures on medicine. However, it wouldn't be because pharmaceutical companies would lose their profits,\1 it is because it would break the advance and development of new compounds that is probably occurring at too fast a rate.

Fueling the excessive rate of development, if it is excessive, is the knowledge of investors that the healthcare market is in a perpetual failure state. There is no constraint on demand. Unlike just about any other product, as long as you make a better product there will always be demand. Imagine doubling the price of a house in order to make it invulnerable to tornadoes. Maybe some people would do it, but they don't get the chance to purchase the modification while a tornado is bearing down on them, and they can't purchase different tiers of tornado insurance then be understandably furious when they find out it doesn't cover emergency home modifications. With other products, even potentially life-saving home improvements, people don't buy them just because they are better, they buy them if they are better and the improvement outweighs the additional cost.

If I were to rationally rank my preferences, I would rank an education that affects the quality of my adult life higher than I would rank a life-saving procedure that extended my life ten years. Some people would be able to choose both, etc, but no one is making those kinds of decisions about how much coverage they get, they simply choose 'whatever is medically necessary', by which they really mean, 'every sort of treatment that has completed development by the time I can use it'.

\1 One can invest in pharmaceutical companies if they think they have magical returns on investment, because little of the revenue is ultimately directed toward expensive research or acquisitions justifying investments in research done elsewhere. Judging by the quality of comments in the thread about efficient markets this morning, they may very well happen!

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#42
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was struck by how little effort the author put into describing the proposed solution for "the poster child for patents." Is the Atlantic going downhill? How do you let drug companies recoup costs quicker without reducing the oversight that goes into drug approval? I am also a little curious about the free market implications. Instead of the invisible hand guiding drug development we will be relying on government au…

I don't see (har har) an invisible hand guiding commercial pharmaceutical development. I see an oligopoly of pharmaceutical corporations acting out of unenlightened self interest. From my layman's perspective, it seems that curing diseases is largely done by government- and university-funded research, while treating symptoms for profit is the domain of corporate R&D.

Do you have a source for that?

Most drug discovery and development is done in the private sector. Think 60%+.

Of the stuff that is gov't funded, it's basic research, not the development that actually gets a drug to market and that's what costs so much money.

EDIT: Wanted to provide some numbers.

252 drug were approved by the FDA from 1998 to 2007[1]. Where did they come from?

58% from pharmaceutical companies 18% from biotech companies.. 16% from universities, transferred to biotech. 8% from universities, transferred to pharma.

During this same period, 118 drugs were considered to have scientific novelty. Where did those come from?

44% were from pharmaceutical companies. 25% were from biotech companies, and 31% were from universities (transferred to either biotech or pharma).

[1]http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/11/04/where_drugs_...

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#43

As long as they still cranked out out new, popular products, companies like Apple would continue to profit by being the first to market, which often confers a long-term advantage. Apple being first to market? When has Apple ever produced anything novel? Personal computers, MP3 players, smartphones, and tablets; were all invented by other companies. Apple's virtue is superior execution , not being first to market.

They didn't invent the tablet, they invented the tablet as we know it. It consider that to be a much harder thing to do. The concept of the tablet hardly needed inventing, just watch Star Trek, it was pretty obvious. The less obvious is the "how" (what you call the execution).

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#44

Frequently overlooked -- American companies are huge net-exporters of IP, IP licenses, and IP-protected stuff. Take the recent Apple/Samsung fiasco, for instance. That's a net cash transfer of over $1B from the South Korean economy to the American economy. Maybe $2B to $3B total when accounting for all the factors. Is that good? No, it's disgraceful, actually. But good luck convincing American legislators of some abs…

Remember theres a difference between getting rid of patents and getting rid of intellectual property.

I don't think anyone is serious about suggesting we get rid of intellectual property; if you're create something, there should be protections to stop people ripping off your stuff and selling it without paying you for it.

It's patents that are the problem.

Patents let you capture an idea and prevent people from creating new things.

That's not protecting something you've created; it's stifling the creative will of others, because you don't want anyone to compete with you. It's the legislative antithesis of the open market.

Notch wrote about this before too, thoughtfully: http://notch.tumblr.com/post/27751395263/on-patents

The US could happily continue to have an major IP 'exports' (however that is appropriately referred to) without patents.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#45
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always astonished by the idea that, were it not for patents and the profits they promise, "no motivation to develop drugs would exist". At one point I worked with a group that raised money to finance medical research for patients with lupus. These were folks who were seen as too few, and suffering from something too complex, to be profitable. For the most part they were relying on some pretty toxic treatments tha…

Tens of millions of dollars won't get a drug to market. Will it fund research that could find useful leads that could produce a drug? Of course. So how do you incentive private organizations to fork over the $100 million(1) or so it takes to get a drug to market? You provide a mechanism to regain your capital plus something more. It's a system that works pretty well. (1) That's if everything works the first time. Sin…

"it's closer to $1 billion on average."

As mentioned, that's a hugely suspicious "fact". As noted by the National Center for Biotechnology Information.

"In the March 2003 edition of the Journal of Health Economics, a trio of economists from the United States wrote about a number. Soon after, that number began popping up all over the place — in newspapers and political speeches, on television and the Internet. But the figure, despite reaching near-canonical status, drew criticism. Some said it was inflated. Less diplomatic detractors said it was a 9-digit fairy tale.

That number was 802,000,000. It was, according to the 2003 study, the number of US dollars that pharmaceutical companies spent, on average, to bring a new drug to market (J Health Econ 2003;22[2]:151-85). Now there are new numbers. Some health economists peg the current cost of drug development at US$1.3 billion, others at US$1.7 billion."

Full article here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2630351/

Key point: the data used to come up with the original number came from an industry financed source and was not made public. And here's a bit more coverage that throws additional cold water on 10 figure costs.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/drug-...

While the actual costs remain unknown, it's a safe bet that they're nothing like the inflated figures being circulated by the industry.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#46
post #45
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tens of millions of dollars won't get a drug to market. Will it fund research that could find useful leads that could produce a drug? Of course. So how do you incentive private organizations to fork over the $100 million(1) or so it takes to get a drug to market? You provide a mechanism to regain your capital plus something more. It's a system that works pretty well. (1) That's if everything works the first time. Sin…

"it's closer to $1 billion on average." As mentioned, that's a hugely suspicious "fact". As noted by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. "In the March 2003 edition of the Journal of Health Economics, a trio of economists from the United States wrote about a number. Soon after, that number began popping up all over the place — in newspapers and political speeches, on television and the Internet. But the…

I agree that the numbers thrown around are often a lot of hand waving. However, let me make a few points few points.

1. Check out the Tufts Center for the Study of Drug Development. They calculate the cost to create a new drug and their methodology is very transparent.

http://csdd.tufts.edu/research/research_milestones

2. You can do a simple sniff test on these numbers. Simply call up a CRO that runs clinical trials and ask "What will it cost me to run a Phase III clinical trial?" I did this recently for a project I was working on. They will freely give the numbers about since they are all in competition with each other.

This is what a recent survey of CROs found[1]: "As for the average per-patient trial costs across all therapeutic areas, in Phase I, costs rose from $15,023 in 2008 to $21,883 in 2011. In Phase II, the cost rose from $21,009 to $36,070. In Phase IIIa, the cost increased from $25,280 to $47,523 and in Phase IIIb, cost jumped from $25,707 to $47,095. Finally, Phase IV expenses rose from $13,011 to $17.042."

Let's do some simple calculations. 1000 patients, 1 year trial. You need to complete two Phase III trials to keep the FDA happy.

1000 patients * $47,000 * 2 = $94M

And that's only for phase III trials. Add in the cost of discovery, pre-clinical work, formulation, Phase I, Phase II, all the paperwork with the FDA.

OK, great, now you're approved, you still need to actually make the drug which includes scale-up, testing, FDA certification of the manufacturing process, packing and distribution.

When I was working at a big pharma company, I heard about a new manufacturing site they had built in anticipation of a really big drug being approved. The cost? Several hundred million dollars. What happen when the drug got rejected by the FDA? The manufacturing site was written off (couldn't really be used to make anything else).

That's why your drugs cost so much.

[1]http://www.pharmalot.com/2011/07/clinical-trial-costs-for-ea...

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#47

As long as they still cranked out out new, popular products, companies like Apple would continue to profit by being the first to market, which often confers a long-term advantage. Apple being first to market? When has Apple ever produced anything novel? Personal computers, MP3 players, smartphones, and tablets; were all invented by other companies. Apple's virtue is superior execution , not being first to market.

They didn't invent the tablet, they invented the tablet as we know it. It consider that to be a much harder thing to do. The concept of the tablet hardly needed inventing, just watch Star Trek, it was pretty obvious. The less obvious is the "how" (what you call the execution).

I agree; it's a point often overlooked that execution can be innovation in and of itself.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#48

It's an interesting thought experiment. If all patents disappeared tomorrow, what would you do differently at your startup? Probably nothing?

I would be less afraid.

This. One of the biggest risks I would see in a startup these days is that the moment you start to be successful or even just get decent funding there's a decent chance you will be patent trolled out of existence.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#49
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be less afraid.

This. One of the biggest risks I would see in a startup these days is that the moment you start to be successful or even just get decent funding there's a decent chance you will be patent trolled out of existence.

I assume you've quantified that statistical probability to support your declaration that there's a "decent chance"?

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#50

Frequently overlooked -- American companies are huge net-exporters of IP, IP licenses, and IP-protected stuff. Take the recent Apple/Samsung fiasco, for instance. That's a net cash transfer of over $1B from the South Korean economy to the American economy. Maybe $2B to $3B total when accounting for all the factors. Is that good? No, it's disgraceful, actually. But good luck convincing American legislators of some abs…

Remember theres a difference between getting rid of patents and getting rid of intellectual property. I don't think anyone is serious about suggesting we get rid of intellectual property; if you're create something, there should be protections to stop people ripping off your stuff and selling it without paying you for it. It's patents that are the problem. Patents let you capture an idea and prevent people from creat…

How do you get rid of patents without getting rid of intellectual property? Do you mean setting up better infrastructure for licensing?
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