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The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

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31–40 of 124 posts

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#31

1. Software costs next to nothing to produce. Why is it so easy to have startups in this sector? What is the overhead of a software/web company? It is almost all intellectual. Ask Microsoft. Pure profit. 2. It is difficult for examiners to find prior art because there is no "official" channel for "publishing" software research that they recognise. There is much know-how that is common knowledge among developers but i…

> 1. Software costs next to nothing to produce. Why is it so easy to have startups in this sector? What is the overhead of a software/web company? It is almost all intellectual. Ask Microsoft. Pure profit.

I'd argue software is extremelty expensive to produce, on the basis that distributing software is so insignificantly expensive that it could be called free. Relative to the costs of distribution, paying developers to write an application is extraordinarily expensive. So is maintaining that code, providing support, and advertising the product. I'd "guess" startups are so abundant in the software sector because distribution is so cheap, not because development is. Entering any other market's distribution channels on an international scale is prohibitively expensive for almost anyone but an already successful mid-sized company.

> 2. It is difficult for examiners to find prior art because there is no "official" channel for "publishing" software research that they recognise. There is much know-how that is common knowledge among developers but is never published in any paper, textbook, standard, RFC, etc. The "database" for searching all these sources may end being a web search engine. That is not ideal.

Even more fundamentally, it is hard to find prior art because software is information / knowledge and traditionally (in the context of math at least) we never had patents on it. If you consider the physical properties of software, it is just the presence of absence of charge over billions of indicants. Does the interface that exactly duplicates the ios home screen but has a binary representation that is nothing like the disassembly of it represent infringement, or the instant messenger whose disassembly looks 95% like the ios home screen? What happens when a music track and an android map are 90% binary identical?

> 1. Drugs are very expensive to produce. Not only the research, the equipment, the staff, but compliance with the regulatory regime. There are no protections against bad software to protect users (developers operate in a wild west type atmosphere), but we have many rules about medicines. These are designed to protect patients. Can you imagine an unregulated pharma industry? Profits take precedence over safety. It would be very dangerous for patients.

Absolutely you need to regulate the pharma industry somewhat, but I would also argue it is a consumers responsibility to know what they are putting in their bodies. We expect people to be able to judge their own alcohol consumption, how are prescriptions any different? If you make knowledge easily and readily available on what drugs do and their effects, consumers could make informed decisions. A lot of the fears in the phara industry is in how close-boxed knowledge is - you assume your doctor knows best, and don't investigate the effects of drugs you consume. I'd call it foolish to not understand the risks of what you are consuming.

> 2. There is a littany of journals that public chemical, biological and medical research and they can all be searched easily in combined databases, to which most all pharmaceutical patent owners subscribe. It is not too difficult for examiners to find prior art and establish publication dates.

That doesn't mean that a government granted monopoly on drugs is a good thing. When the expenses of drug research (which end up significantly being the rigorous 3 phase testing drugs need to pass to be allowed to be sold to end users) are so high, and profit motive is involved, drug costs spiral out of control. For Americans like myself without health insurance, we just can't afford to buy any of these drugs even with a prescription because they can cost upwards of $200 or more a bottle. The fact the actual drugs only cost at most a few dollars to produce per bottle, so the rest is profit to recoup research costs, doesn't help the fact that the good is cheap to make and is artificially expensive to recoup tremendous research costs. One (not me, but it is a theoretical) might argue that the R&D of a to-market drug could be just paid in full to whoever developed it, and that the formula itself could be released public domain. Taxes go up, drugs are cheap.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#32
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always astonished by the idea that, were it not for patents and the profits they promise, "no motivation to develop drugs would exist". At one point I worked with a group that raised money to finance medical research for patients with lupus. These were folks who were seen as too few, and suffering from something too complex, to be profitable. For the most part they were relying on some pretty toxic treatments tha…

Tens of millions of dollars won't get a drug to market. Will it fund research that could find useful leads that could produce a drug? Of course. So how do you incentive private organizations to fork over the $100 million(1) or so it takes to get a drug to market? You provide a mechanism to regain your capital plus something more. It's a system that works pretty well. (1) That's if everything works the first time. Sin…

Funding the expensive regulatory process (which includes clinical trials and all the rest) is very easy to legislate. For example, grant a company some limited exclusive rights for commerce/sale of a drug they have funded through clinical trials.

A commercial restriction on the sale of a drug would be far less onerous and legally problematic than the current patent system.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#33
post #6

The patent system somehow has morphed from shield to sword. Protecting inventors is one path toward innovation, but it should be a byproduct of maximizing innovation and not the end state. If the objective of the patent system is to foster innovation, then it should grant patents only if they are necessary for innovation, i.e., innovation wouldn't reasonably occur otherwise. Amazon's one-click patent versus drug pate…

I like that idea, and I believe it rings true with most responsible people. However, it's difficult to measure. As an example, in the recent Apple v/s Samsung, if it weren't for Apple, we would still be dealing with shitty Nokia, Samsung and Sony Ericsson phones with crap OSes, no decent applications, and the phones would be anything but smart - because there was no need to improve. Once Apple made everyone lift thei…

Would the innovation have happened if Apple hadn't driven it? Not any time soon.

Maemo, Openmoko, and Android all serve as counterexamples to your claim that Apple was the sole driver of recent smartphone innovation. Our smartphones might look a bit different now had Apple not released the iPhone, but they would still exist. Industry consortia were developing higher-bandwidth data standards (a Danish friend told me in 200[012] that 256kbit/s access on cell phones was already widespread), companies were experimenting with different form factors, operating systems were being developed, etc.

In my view, your definition needs to be tighter to cover scenarios such as these.

Perceived scenarios such as these are often a product of missing information.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But good luck convincing American legislators of some abstract far-future benefits to a less regulated world when the short-term result would be a worsening of the trade-deficit, a lowering of American exports, and a lowering of American income and tax yields. I'm not sure any of those is actually true. Maybe the trade deficit, but only on paper. In fact the money just goes into Apple's coffers instead of Samsung's,…

> I'm not sure any of those is actually true. Maybe the trade deficit, but only on paper. In fact the money just goes into Apple's coffers instead of Samsung's, and in turn to Apple's shareholders instead of Samsung's. But they're mostly the same people. ... The fact that one company is nominally American and one is nominally South Korean doesn't really have any bearing. I don't think the numbers bear that out. Take…

I'm not sure how comparable the employment numbers are given that Samsung does more of their own manufacturing whereas Apple outsources to Foxconn (or Samsung) et al. It makes Apple look like they have a much larger percentage of U.S. workers when you discount the six digit number of factory workers making iPhones in China.

But let's go ahead and assume Apple employs more U.S. workers per device shipped than Samsung. It's still the case that the money gained in litigation doesn't go to the workers. Apple isn't going to hire any researchers or manufacturers with $121B in the bank that they wouldn't have with $120B. The people who get the extra money are the shareholders in the form of either dividends or stock price, and the stockholders are again predominantly large institutional investors for both companies.

Where the economic effect comes in is that those investors will now expect based on past performance for Apple's stock to improve and Samsung's to decline, and so increase their holdings in Apple. If Apple as a rule employes more U.S. workers than Samsung then this is ostensibly a good thing for the U.S. because then Samsung may not have as much available capital to develop new products etc. and Apple will have more, so Apple will be more competitive in the market and need to hire new employees to meet demand etc. There is every possibility that this doesn't actually happen because Samsung can afford to take the hit and keep doing what they were going to do anyway and Apple doesn't have any productive internal use for the extra money, but if it does happen, that would be the national economic good that Congress would be interested in preserving.

But that's where we get back to the premise -- does the patent system help or hurt? Apple's U.S. employees are the researchers, not the manufacturers. Having more sales because the competition has been damaged by litigation and can no longer compete effectively will cause Apple to need more factory workers to sell the extra devices, but those workers are in China. Conversely, by harming the competition's ability to compete, Apple is less in need of the R&D jobs that employ U.S. workers, because the bar has been lowered as to how good of a device Apple needs to produce to make the sale, so why spend more on R&D? Why even spend as much as they might have against a more competitive Samsung?

The point is, funneling money into U.S. companies doesn't inherently produce U.S. economic growth or provide any benefits to U.S. citizens. And if it simultaneously causes economic inefficiency, it can in fact do the opposite.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#35
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that idea, and I believe it rings true with most responsible people. However, it's difficult to measure. As an example, in the recent Apple v/s Samsung, if it weren't for Apple, we would still be dealing with shitty Nokia, Samsung and Sony Ericsson phones with crap OSes, no decent applications, and the phones would be anything but smart - because there was no need to improve. Once Apple made everyone lift thei…

"Would the innovation have happened if Apple hadn't driven it? Not any time soon." I am fascinated by this statement. What evidence do you have to support it?

The entire mobile industry pre-iPhone?

This is and endless argument, you either acknowledge that they pushed it forward or you don't but there wasn't a significant application platform, touch was nearly nonexistent and even dismissed by RIM, and while many of these things might be dismissed as obvious, Apple made it stick and they beat the entire current crop of competitors to the market.

Everything is easy once you've seen it done...

Take the typical Nokia and Motorola device from 1997 and the typical one from the iPhone launch, biggest improvements? More SMS and the phones got a little bit smaller

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#36

  As long as they still cranked out out new, popular 
  products, companies like Apple would continue to profit by 
  being the first to market, which often confers a long-term 
  advantage.  
Apple being first to market? When has Apple ever produced anything novel? Personal computers, MP3 players, smartphones, and tablets; were all invented by other companies. Apple's virtue is superior execution, not being first to market.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#37

The pharmaceuticals industry could never have grown so big without patents. That kind of drug research would have had to been done by publicly-funded bodies, such as universities. I kind of feel like this is an argument in favor of this article. It also explains why it will never happen. Now that we have big-pharma how are we doing to disassemble the thing that keeps it alive?

Simple, recognize that pharaceuticals are a highly special case and develop a custom set of protections/incentives. There is already a mountain of custom regulation for that industry. It's absurd to think that the same age-of-steam monopoly grant system that currently sorta benefits the pharmaceutical industry should also apply to software, websites, business methods, and exercising one's cat. It's completely retarde…

The reason I didn’t suggest this is that industry-specific law feels like a byproduct of the lobbyist culture that has lead to many of our current problems and pre-existence doesn’t justify its continued creation. But, overall, I think you’re right and this is the pragmatic solution.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#38

Frequently overlooked -- American companies are huge net-exporters of IP, IP licenses, and IP-protected stuff. Take the recent Apple/Samsung fiasco, for instance. That's a net cash transfer of over $1B from the South Korean economy to the American economy. Maybe $2B to $3B total when accounting for all the factors. Is that good? No, it's disgraceful, actually. But good luck convincing American legislators of some abs…

OK, so $1B goes from Samsung to Apple.

But what is the cost to the US economy of the fact that we now have only ONE* company left who can design and market handheld portable electronics?

* One might argue that Motorola isn't fully dead yet.

Re: The Case for Abolishing Patents (Yes, All of Them)

#39
post #31

1. Software costs next to nothing to produce. Why is it so easy to have startups in this sector? What is the overhead of a software/web company? It is almost all intellectual. Ask Microsoft. Pure profit. 2. It is difficult for examiners to find prior art because there is no "official" channel for "publishing" software research that they recognise. There is much know-how that is common knowledge among developers but i…

> 1. Software costs next to nothing to produce. Why is it so easy to have startups in this sector? What is the overhead of a software/web company? It is almost all intellectual. Ask Microsoft. Pure profit. I'd argue software is extremelty expensive to produce, on the basis that distributing software is so insignificantly expensive that it could be called free. Relative to the costs of distribution, paying developers…

The key is that software development is an unavoidable sunk cost. Once it has been paid, it can be ignored in terms of considering per-unit pricing.

The actual marginal cost of each unit of software sold is pretty close to zero. This is what makes it so fantastically profitable compared to almost anything else.

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