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Valve is about to win the console generation

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Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#91

Post by jauntywundrkind »

jsheard wrote: post #86
kouteiheika wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hardly understand the headline. Steam machine is just a computer, and since it can be used for other stuff than playing games, then it can't have the cheap pricing of a console. I don't understand this train of thought. It absolutely can have the cheap pricing of a console, as long as Steam is the default store, and the majority of users will use the console as-is and buy games on Steam. Let me give a quick analo…

> It absolutely can have the cheap pricing of a console Valve hasn't committed to a price yet, but they told Gamers Nexus that it'll be priced less like a console and more like an entry level computer (i.e. more expensive than a console).

Weird statement, because I can search for PS5 pro & see $750 price points, and entry level computers have been far far cheaper. Cheaper than Xbox series X at $650. Getting pretty solid laptops for a bit under $500 has been possible for many years now.

But "entry level computer" has a very broad interpretation available. Could be higher for sure.

Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#92

Post by micromacrofoot »

skissane wrote: post #42

So, Steam is planning to sell these at a loss, but isn’t planning to lock out third party OS? What’s to stop people buying them to use for completely unrelated use cases? I guess it depends on how big the loss is… if it is small, it might not be really worth it for most people; but any larger, I wonder how sustainable this will be.

no modern console is sold at a loss this is silly speculation

Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#93

Post by xgulfie »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #50

We heard this literally with the previous steam machine lol There’s no doubt they’re tee’d up to radically alter the landscape. But man they better have a truly plug and play, turnkey system if they want to compete with consoles. The steamdeck even after this many years is absolutely trash at going from handheld to docked (better the other direction at least) and is incredibly hit or miss when it’s plugged into a TV…

Literally every USB-C dock I've ever used with any laptop has these sorts of issues.

On the flip side, I'm pretty confident AMD will be able to output to DisplayPort

Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#95

Post by dgrin91 »

TheRoque wrote: post #51

I hardly understand the headline. Steam machine is just a computer, and since it can be used for other stuff than playing games, then it can't have the cheap pricing of a console. Most consoles are sold at a loss, and the benefits are made when selling console-exclusive games. If you sell something at a loss, but users aren't forced to buy your games, then you're not gonna make any money. Hence, the Steam Machine (AK…

GabeCube gave me a good chuckle, thank you.

Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#96

Post by starkparker »

> The only possible flaw I can see is that the strap it ships with doesn't go over the top of your head. If this ends up being an issue in practice, somebody is going to make a third party strap that just fixes this problem

Not even a third party: https://youtu.be/b7q2CS8HDHU?t=380

> the option of an ergonomic strap that you can hook onto the top, hook onto the back, to take more weight off the front of your head.

https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/vr-hardware/steam-frame-spe...

> There's an optional ergonomic accessories kit for the Steam Frame that adds an extra strap for your head and a pair of straps, one for each controller. These added controller straps are reminiscent of those found on the Index and seem like a reasonable investment, if the price is right.

Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#97

Post by jsheard »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #91
jsheard wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It absolutely can have the cheap pricing of a console Valve hasn't committed to a price yet, but they told Gamers Nexus that it'll be priced less like a console and more like an entry level computer (i.e. more expensive than a console).

Weird statement, because I can search for PS5 pro & see $750 price points, and entry level computers have been far far cheaper. Cheaper than Xbox series X at $650. Getting pretty solid laptops for a bit under $500 has been possible for many years now. But "entry level computer" has a very broad interpretation available. Could be higher for sure.

I assumed they meant an entry level gaming computer, not something with potato-grade integrated graphics, but I agree it's vague.

Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#98

Post by somenameforme »

TheRoque wrote: post #51

I hardly understand the headline. Steam machine is just a computer, and since it can be used for other stuff than playing games, then it can't have the cheap pricing of a console. Most consoles are sold at a loss, and the benefits are made when selling console-exclusive games. If you sell something at a loss, but users aren't forced to buy your games, then you're not gonna make any money. Hence, the Steam Machine (AK…

> Most consoles are sold at a loss

You're thinking of 'back in the day.' The original XBox's video card was worth more than they sold the entire system for, and the PS3 was a complete beast of computation (even if not entirely inappropriate for games...)! But in modern times (PS4 gen onward) consoles have become relatively vanilla midrange computers designed with the intent of turning profit on the hardware as quickly as possible.

The hardware cost of the PS4 was less than it's retail price from day 0 [1], and they began making a profit per unit shortly thereafter. Similarly the PS5 also reached profit per unit in less than a year. [2] XBox models from the PS4 gen onward are conspicuously similar as well.

[1] - https://tech.yahoo.com/general/article/2013-11-19-ps4-costs-...

[2] - https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/4/22609150/sony-playstation-...

Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#99

Post by SchemaLoad »

altairprime wrote: post #64
SchemaLoad wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immutability doesn't provide this on it's own. You can load any custom immutable image you want. What game devs want is full boot chain attestation where every part of the OS is measured and verified untampered with, and then to load their own spyware at the highest level. The only way immutability helps here is you could have two OS images, the users own customisable one, and a clean one. Then when you try to load a…

I am, indeed, assuming that their immutable image can generate attestations chained appropriately. If not, it’s a catastrophic business error on their part to put in all that work, and I don’t consider that degree of failure likely . Definitely curious to see if they can enable the chain on existing Steamdecks or not.

Immutable images provide many benefits that are unrelated to DRM. The main one being that the entire fleet of Steam Decks/Machines are all in a known state. Updates are a matter of pushing a new OS image, you don't have to worry about migrating files, conflicting configurations, strange user changes. And if an update fails, the bootloader shows a screen where you can boot a previous OS image that worked.

It's like docker images for the whole OS. As far as I can tell, the Steam Deck does not have secure boot or any kind of attestation enabled. They have been very forward in marketing it as an open and free system you can do anything on. The hardware does have a TPM that is seemingly unused currently, not sure if it supports some form of secure boot.

Re: Valve is about to win the console generation

#100

Post by Telaneo »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #91
jsheard wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It absolutely can have the cheap pricing of a console Valve hasn't committed to a price yet, but they told Gamers Nexus that it'll be priced less like a console and more like an entry level computer (i.e. more expensive than a console).

Weird statement, because I can search for PS5 pro & see $750 price points, and entry level computers have been far far cheaper. Cheaper than Xbox series X at $650. Getting pretty solid laptops for a bit under $500 has been possible for many years now. But "entry level computer" has a very broad interpretation available. Could be higher for sure.

Do those computers play games competently? I doubt they play them as well as the PS5 or Series X. We aren't in the days where integrated graphics instantly meant sub 20 FPS on any game no matter how simple, but I still wouldn't throw any recent triple A game at even new-ish computers with integrated graphics and expect them to perform all that well. They'll play Rocket League, Stardew Valley and Minecraft just fine, and maybe that's all they need to do, but a Steam Machine that can't play tomorrow's title roughly on par with current gen consoles seems like a losing bet unless the price is equivalently lower.
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