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Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

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Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This case is unusual because the New York Times can't point to any harm It helps to read the complaint. If that was the case, the case would have been subject to a Rule 12(b)(6) (failure to state a claim for which relief can be granted) challenge and closed. Complaint: https://nytco-assets.nytimes.com/2023/12/NYT_Complaint_Dec20... See pages 60ff.

My observation is that section does not articulate any harm. It _claims_ harm, but doesn't actually explain what the harm is. Reduced profits? Lower readership? All they say is "OpenAI violated our copyrights, and we deserve money." > 167. As a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ infringing conduct alleged herein, The Times has sustained and will continue to sustain substantial, immediate, and irreparable inju…

> As a direct and proximate result of Defendants’ infringing conduct alleged herein, The Times has sustained and will continue to sustain substantial, immediate, and irreparable injury for which there is no adequate remedy at law. Unless Defendants’ infringing conduct is enjoined by this Court, Defendants have demonstrated an intent to continue to infringe the copyrighted works. The Times therefore is entitled to permanent injunctive relief restraining and enjoining Defendants’ ongoing infringing conduct.

This is boilerplate language in a claim seeking injunctive relief. In contract law in law school, you learn there's a historical difference between cases at law (where the only remedy is money) and cases in equity (where the court can issue injunctions). If you want to stop someone from violating your rights, you claim "irreparable injury" (that is, money isn't enough) and ask for the court in equity to issue an injunction.

> It _claims_ harm, but doesn't actually explain what the harm is. Reduced profits? Lower readership? All they say is "OpenAI violated our copyrights, and we deserve money."

Copyright violation, in and of itself, constitutes a judicially cognizable injury. It's a violation of a type of property right - that is, the right to exclude others from using your artistic works without your permission. The Copyright Act specifies that victims of copyright infringement are not only entitled to an injunction, but also to statutory damages as well as compensatory damages to be determined by a jury. See 17 U.S.C. § 504.

Similarly, you don't have to claim a specific injury in a garden-variety trespass action. The violation of your property rights is enough.

Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does OpenAI collect and retain for 30 days^1 chats that the user wants to be deleted It was doing this prior to being sued by the NYT and many others OpenAI was collecting chats even when the user asked for deletion, i.e., the user did not want them saved That's why a lawsuit could require OpenAi to issue a hold order, retain these chats for longer and produce them to another party in discovery If OpenAI was not…

I'm not commenting on the core point of your comment, only the "why retain for 30 days" question. Im an age of automated backups and failovers, deleting can be really hard. Part of the answer could simply be that syncing a delete across all the redundancies (while ensuring those redundancies are reliable when a disaster happens and they need to recover or maintain uptime) may take days to weeks. Also the 30 days coul…

The most likely explanation is whatever storage solution they’re using has a built in “recycle bin” functionality and deleted data stays the for 30 days before it’s actually deleted. I see this a lot in very large databases. The recycle bin functionality is built in to the data store product.

Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#263
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the purpose of OpenAI storing millions of private conversations Your previous ChatGPT conversations show up right in the ChatGPT interface. They have to store the private conversations to enable users to bring them up in the interface. This isn't a secretive, hidden data collection. It's a clear and obvious feature right in the product. They're fighting for the ability to not retain secret records of past c…

They could have been stored at the client, and encrypted before optionally synced back to OpenAI servers in a way that the stored chats can only be read back by the user. Signal illustrates how this is possible. OpenAI made a choice in how the feature was and is implemented.

This doesn’t sound realistic. Signal is end to end encrypted and only sends one message at a time, while ChatGPT needs the entire chat context for every message and they need to decrypt your messages in their services in order to feed them into the LLM.

Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#264
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the purpose of OpenAI storing millions of private conversations Your previous ChatGPT conversations show up right in the ChatGPT interface. They have to store the private conversations to enable users to bring them up in the interface. This isn't a secretive, hidden data collection. It's a clear and obvious feature right in the product. They're fighting for the ability to not retain secret records of past c…

They could have been stored at the client, and encrypted before optionally synced back to OpenAI servers in a way that the stored chats can only be read back by the user. Signal illustrates how this is possible. OpenAI made a choice in how the feature was and is implemented.

Signal does End-to-end encryption, so they (Signal) can never read it.

The whole point of ChatGPT conversations is so they can be read by the model on the server.

Conversations are kept around because they can be picked up and continued at any point (I use this feature frequently).

Additionally you can use conversations in their scheduled notification feature, where the conversation is replayed and updates are sent to you, all done on the server.

> OpenAI made a choice in how the feature was and is implemented.

Indeed they did, and it was a sensible choice given how the conversations are used.

Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#265
post #247
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our long-term roadmap includes advanced security features designed to keep your data private, including client-side encryption for your messages with ChatGPT. We believe these features will help keep your private conversations private and inaccessible to anyone else, even OpenAI.

This sort of thing is pretty trivial to implement from the start, they just chose not to because they wanted the data themselves

[deleted]

Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#266
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the purpose of OpenAI storing millions of private conversations Your previous ChatGPT conversations show up right in the ChatGPT interface. They have to store the private conversations to enable users to bring them up in the interface. This isn't a secretive, hidden data collection. It's a clear and obvious feature right in the product. They're fighting for the ability to not retain secret records of past c…

They could have been stored at the client, and encrypted before optionally synced back to OpenAI servers in a way that the stored chats can only be read back by the user. Signal illustrates how this is possible. OpenAI made a choice in how the feature was and is implemented.

People are responding in this thread as if ChatGPT is a one-on-one conversation with another person. The data isn’t “shared” with OpenAI. You’re chatting with OpenAI. ChatGPT is just a service. There’s no way to use ChatGPT without sharing all of your chats with OpenAI, that’s what the entire product is.

Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably for cross-device interactivity. If I interact with ChatGPT on my phone, then open it on my desktop. I might be a bit frustrated that I can't get to the chat I was having on my phone previously. OpenAI could store the chat conversation in an encrypted format that only you, the user, can decrypt, with the client-side determining the amount of previous messages to include for additional context, but there's p…

Syncthing could do that, if the software is designed to store locally. Ever since I put the effort into Syncthing across my all devices (paired with restic on one of them for backup), I can't help but see how cross-device functionality and cloud this are the Sysco hash potatoes that balloons Big Corp services' profit margins. Not saying it's easy to set up. But when you get there it's so liberating and you wish all s…

SyncThing syncs only when both clients are running at the same time. Nobody who edits a document on a website expects that they'll need to leave that browser window open in order to see the document in a different browser.

Am I missing something? Is this seriously a heated HN debate over "why does this website need to store the text it sends to people who view the website?"?

Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not commenting on the core point of your comment, only the "why retain for 30 days" question. Im an age of automated backups and failovers, deleting can be really hard. Part of the answer could simply be that syncing a delete across all the redundancies (while ensuring those redundancies are reliable when a disaster happens and they need to recover or maintain uptime) may take days to weeks. Also the 30 days coul…

The most likely explanation is whatever storage solution they’re using has a built in “recycle bin” functionality and deleted data stays the for 30 days before it’s actually deleted. I see this a lot in very large databases. The recycle bin functionality is built in to the data store product.

That sounds very plausible.

Re: Fighting the New York Times' invasion of user privacy

#270
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is the purpose of OpenAI storing millions of private conversations Have you used ChatGPT? Your conversation history is on the left rail

"Have you used ChatGPT?" No Large number of upvotes on the quoted comment however. Maybe some of those voters are ChatGPT users I do searching from the command line in text mode. The script I use keeps a "log" (a customised SERP) of all query strings and search result URLs. I also have these URLs stored in the logs from the forward proxy. These are compressed using RePair. I can search the compressed logs faster this…

> No

Given that, I'd suggest not offering "alternatives" to the features described in TFA for a service you've never used. There are people here talking about oranges, a lot of them with domain expertise, and you're not just talking about apples, you're talking about bird migrations.

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