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How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

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Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#511

Post by foldr »

coldtea wrote: post #508
foldr wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither was Jeremy Corbyn, but he would have been Prime Minister if enough people had voted for him. Say what you will about him (I am not a fan), but he is not “establishment approved”.

That's why he "didn't pass all the tests" and was undermined both by the media and by his own parties, and various establishment interests.

You said:

> because people were only given a couple of establishment approved choices

Unless you think Jeremy Corbyn was establishment approved (!), this is clearly not true.

I’m not really sure what to make of your latest comment. Is your preferred world one where the media never criticize your favored politicians and the left wing of the Labour Party ruthlessly crushes internal dissent? If that’s what it would have taken to make Corbyn Prime Minister, then count me out.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#512

Post by alt227 »

varispeed wrote: post #510
alt227 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem IMO is nothing to do with status or pay, specifically in the UK the issue is capitalism. Capitalism demands that companies show continous growth, or they are classed to be failing. The UK is very small on the world stage, and so inevitably all manufacturers come up against the need to export and grow beyond the UKs borders. This is when aquisitions and mergers from overseas corperations occur, and they ha…

It’s not capitalism in general; it’s the British flavour of it. In most capitalist countries, investing in the workforce is seen as a way to grow. In Britain, it’s seen as a threat to the social order. The class system turns economic policy into a tool of control. For the British elite, an empowered, well-paid workforce isn’t progress - it’s an uprising. The economy is structured to keep labour cheap and dependent, s…

I dont agree with this at all. Look at other small countries with big production outputs like Japan. This is possible due to an incredibly high work ethic and skilled workforce. They still have the ruling class, and the big fat cat bosses that own all the companies. But the willingness of the population to work extraordinary hours with incredible precision is what makes it possible.

The UK population are lazy, and have been constantly told that manual labour is degrading and low class work. Nobody in the UK takes pride in any manufacturing work.Its nothing to do with a 'ruling class' conspiracy.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#513

Post by vablings »

alt227 wrote: post #512
varispeed wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not capitalism in general; it’s the British flavour of it. In most capitalist countries, investing in the workforce is seen as a way to grow. In Britain, it’s seen as a threat to the social order. The class system turns economic policy into a tool of control. For the British elite, an empowered, well-paid workforce isn’t progress - it’s an uprising. The economy is structured to keep labour cheap and dependent, s…

I dont agree with this at all. Look at other small countries with big production outputs like Japan. This is possible due to an incredibly high work ethic and skilled workforce. They still have the ruling class, and the big fat cat bosses that own all the companies. But the willingness of the population to work extraordinary hours with incredible precision is what makes it possible. The UK population are lazy, and ha…

As someone who was deeply integrated into the manufacturing industry the population is not lazy.

My former company had plenty of very talented hard-working people ever at basic level jobs such as assembly, that had years of experience that could diagnose an issue with a single part without even without understanding the underlying mechanical engineering and tolerance stack-up.

My former workplaces biggest issues were pressure from other markets consuming market share and the inability of university educated salespeople to promote our unique product for the specific advantages it had over other off the shelf solutions.

Customers who understood the unique advantages always made regular business, but sales folk struggled to actually bring in any new blood. Nothing to do with the manufacturing environment (which I was largely responsible for improvements in). that was very optimized and honestly pretty low cost. I know it's absolutely a fact as for the number of CAM engineers I spoke to who always assured me there was some cycle time to be saved just for them to send me over a program that was 4x longer than our current production programs.

My biggest takeaway after leaving the UK is that it was rigged from the start and the UK is doomed to fail a sad and slow dying death since about the 1970s, well before I was born.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#514

Post by vablings »

mrguyorama wrote: post #431
dylan604 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The highest value thing you can do in this life is produce food. Talk to a non-corporate farmer today, and ask them how valued their production of food is. Society, however, does not agree with your sentiment. Obviously I'm nitpicking, but if society agreed with your proposed value, the billionaires of the world would be farmers and not tech people. That's how weird and out of balance we seem to be today.

>Talk to a non-corporate farmer today, and ask them how valued their production of food is. America spends $20-$30 billion a year paying corn growers per bushel of corn they grow America spends $100 billion+ per year paying people to buy the output of those farmers using food stamps. America requires that 10-15% of all gas in the entire nation is actually ethanol derived from corn. Twice now, President Trump has pers…

Most of the food production in the United States has been moved over from small individual farmers to large corporations. Any time there is government policy that negatively hurts farmers there is a big push from the media to show small time farmers hurting but the biggest losers are actually the much larger corporations.

Farmers are the ultimate DEI hire and are small farmers are just used as political tools, eventually if companies like John Deere keep getting away with blatant consumer rights abuses these small farmers will be completely wiped out and just left with massive corporations that heavily lobby the government for more subsidy's and free hand-outs

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#515

Post by varispeed »

alt227 wrote: post #512
varispeed wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not capitalism in general; it’s the British flavour of it. In most capitalist countries, investing in the workforce is seen as a way to grow. In Britain, it’s seen as a threat to the social order. The class system turns economic policy into a tool of control. For the British elite, an empowered, well-paid workforce isn’t progress - it’s an uprising. The economy is structured to keep labour cheap and dependent, s…

I dont agree with this at all. Look at other small countries with big production outputs like Japan. This is possible due to an incredibly high work ethic and skilled workforce. They still have the ruling class, and the big fat cat bosses that own all the companies. But the willingness of the population to work extraordinary hours with incredible precision is what makes it possible. The UK population are lazy, and ha…

That argument explains symptoms, not causes. “The British are lazy” is a convenient myth told by people who spent decades dismantling the very conditions that make pride and skill possible.

Japan’s work ethic didn’t appear by magic. It’s the result of long-term industrial policy, lifetime employment norms, and a culture that rewards skill. The UK spent the same decades casualising labour, cutting apprenticeships, and outsourcing production. You can’t get a proud, productive workforce by paying poverty wages and sneering at manual work.

And let’s be honest - would you give your best when your boss says he “can’t afford a raise” while pulling up in a new sports car? Low pay kills motivation. People stop caring because the system made caring pointless.

It’s not a conspiracy; it’s class logic. When those at the top treat labour as a nuisance rather than a partner, the whole structure rots. Japan’s elite reinvest in their workforce. Britain’s extract from it.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#516

Post by lenkite »

varjag wrote: post #346
kelipso wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just feel good nonsense… Russia has alliances or agreements with multiple major and minor countries including China. I don’t understand why people post these cope posts online unless it’s just to make themselves feel good.

Aside from you apparently replying to some other comment than mine: Russia honors no treaties or alliances except when it's convenient.

> Russia honors no treaties or alliances except when it's convenient.

Russia has a strong historical track record of honoring its treaties and commitments with India and many other Asian nations.

Also, one could point at the US and apply your statement more accurately.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#517

Post by lenkite »

parados wrote: post #332

Former UK manufacturing engineer here (1980s onwards). The manufacturing industry in the UK at that time suffered from three serious problems: - Low productivity workforce. There was a huge pool of skilled, low wage, workers that had little incentive (or will) to up-skill. There were few apprenticeship schemes or other education programs to train them for the modern world. - Poor quality management. "Working in trade…

> I don't believe that these were significantly contributory, from experience: The unions...

The formally commissioned report clearly demonstrates that the ship building unions were dysfunctional:

"…a laborer (member of the Transport and General Workers Union) [to] carry the ladder to site, a rigger (member of the Amalgamated Society of Boilermakers, Shipwrights, Blacksmiths and Structural Workers Union) [to] erect it and place it in the proper position, and an electrician (member of the Electrical Trades Union) [to] actually remove the old bulb and screw in the new one. Production was often halted while waiting for a member of the appropriate union to arrive to perform the job reserved by agreement for them. (sunset 96)"

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#518

Post by ta20240528 »

iso1631 wrote: post #451
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rejoin is polling far ahead of Brexit, which is beginning to be acknowledged as a mistake by everyone. Although not everyone agrees on the reasons. The problem is the UK is an oligarchy owned and run by non-dom billionaires. It's essentially a floating labour camp. Virtually all the major industries are foreign-owned, and profits flow out of the country instead of being invested in infrastructure, R&D, and national d…

But that popularity (about 2:1 saying brexit was a mistake) isn't translating to political support, probably because both Labour and Tories supported Brexit. And while the majority agree we should never have left the EU, and the majority agree we should rejoin, that isn't translating to political support. Indeed the plurarity of votes is to Mr Brexit himself, who thanks to FPTP is likely to get a majority government…

Support for Brexit evaporates when people realise they will have to adopt the Euro.

On day one - for past bad behaviour.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#519

Post by MrMorden »

gehsty wrote: post #173
mike_hearn wrote: post #5

It's a good analysis but probably over-fixates on shipping specific factors. The UK also lost its car industry, its steel industry etc. The root cause in most industries is the same, there were just too many Labour supporters and the unions got too strong as a result. From the comments: > I can relate to British union rules being head-bangingly stupid. In the mid-1970's I worked on the night shift as a spot-welder on…

Blame the workers, it’s absolute bullshit (apologies for language). My view is privatization opened up the British market to globalization, and fundamentally once everyone is trying to get things for the cheapest price the domestic supply chain shrinks, in the UK it has shrunk to the point it vanished. Other countries with stronger protection for domestic production (like the US with the Jones act and dredging acts,…

The Jones Act and friends are exactly what turned US shipbuilding into rent-seeking. You can have protectionism or you can have manufacturing, but not both.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#520

Post by mono442 »

jack_tripper wrote: post #415
bad_haircut72 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres simply no reason why college is as expensive as it is. The cynic in me says price increases are about setting up class boundaries and pushing people back into the necessary but less desirable factory/trade jobs of previous generations

>The cynic in me says price increases are about setting up class boundaries and pushing people back into the necessary but less desirable factory/trade jobs of previous generations This makes absolutely no sense when you spend two seconds to think about the supply and demand. Case in point, college is free in Europe and that has led to the exact problem you fear: oversupply of college grads and devaluation of degrees…

I can't speak for the whole Europie but in my experience those kind of jobs just don't really pay well. They kind of make sense when living in a cheaper area but I personally wouldn't imagine actually making ends meet from this kind of job in a capital city in my country.
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