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How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

construction-physics.com

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Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#21

Post by mike_hearn »

MangoToupe wrote: post #10
mike_hearn wrote: post #5

It's a good analysis but probably over-fixates on shipping specific factors. The UK also lost its car industry, its steel industry etc. The root cause in most industries is the same, there were just too many Labour supporters and the unions got too strong as a result. From the comments: > I can relate to British union rules being head-bangingly stupid. In the mid-1970's I worked on the night shift as a spot-welder on…

[flagged]

For steel you need iron ore and coal, which the UK has plenty of. It was heavily industrialized in the 19th century. It's not that different in terms of natural resources to Germany.

British cars could have remained competitive for a lot longer if labour relations had been like in Germany. Germany's organized labour is/was famously mild compared to the feral British unions that were run by open Marxists and did things like topple governments.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#22

Post by mike_hearn »

jacquesm wrote: post #15
mike_hearn wrote: post #5

It's a good analysis but probably over-fixates on shipping specific factors. The UK also lost its car industry, its steel industry etc. The root cause in most industries is the same, there were just too many Labour supporters and the unions got too strong as a result. From the comments: > I can relate to British union rules being head-bangingly stupid. In the mid-1970's I worked on the night shift as a spot-welder on…

The main reason the car industry couldn't hack it is because of quality issues. There was this joke sticker for the back of your Jaguar or Rolls: "The parts falling off this car are of the very finest British manufacture". I worked a lot on classic Mini's, Metros and Maxi's. The degree to which body work had been patched and bent to match it to the corresponding chassis was quite amazing. Rumor had it the Leyland fac…

Quality issues are inevitable if the unions see their role as preventing anyone from getting fired.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#23

Post by yanhangyhy »

elcritch wrote: post #14
yanhangyhy wrote: post #4

This is called mean reversion in history. The UK and Japan are small island countries. They lack the resources and manpower to sustain long-term industrial prosperity. Everything they have is temporary. In the end these industries flow to large nations with vast resources and large pools of technical talent. It used to be the United States. Now it is China absorbing Japan and Korea. This applies not only to shipbuild…

Seems a naive simplistic philosophy. The UK is larger than South Korea and has a similar population size. Yet South Korea has outcompeted the UK and US in ship building. By most accounts by investing in advanced technology and ship building technologies. Having population and talented populous is a requirement but not sufficient for achieving big things. It requires leadership as well. Look at Taiwan out competing Ch…

> Look at Taiwan out competing China in silicon foundaries.

it wont last long. even china dont use military to take taiwan, china will still win on this in the the end. It's just a matter of time. A lead of a few decades doesn't mean everything from the perspective of historical dimensions, it's still too short.

also, china will take taiwan in short times(less than 10 years), so the result wont change anyway. From a historical perspective, this is a normal means of transferring power and status.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#24

Post by MangoToupe »

mike_hearn wrote: post #21
MangoToupe wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

For steel you need iron ore and coal, which the UK has plenty of. It was heavily industrialized in the 19th century. It's not that different in terms of natural resources to Germany. British cars could have remained competitive for a lot longer if labour relations had been like in Germany. Germany's organized labour is/was famously mild compared to the feral British unions that were run by open Marxists and did thing…

Germany's economy is currently collapsing because they can't import cheap energy. I don't think unions matter much, except to democracy.

The british isle is also unlikely to become a steel production hub unless it both grows massively and reorganizes its labor around efficiency rather than profit.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#25

Post by jen20 »

MangoToupe wrote: post #10
mike_hearn wrote: post #5

It's a good analysis but probably over-fixates on shipping specific factors. The UK also lost its car industry, its steel industry etc. The root cause in most industries is the same, there were just too many Labour supporters and the unions got too strong as a result. From the comments: > I can relate to British union rules being head-bangingly stupid. In the mid-1970's I worked on the night shift as a spot-welder on…

[flagged]

Longbridge is not inherently a worse place to manufacture cars than Munich, South Carolina or even Detroit.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#26

Post by Incipient »

vatsachak wrote: post #3

"As other countries expanded their output, adopted modern production methods, and built new, efficient shipyards, British shipbuilders found themselves increasingly uncompetitive." This feels like the US with longshoremen and coal

I do feel the cost of labour is DRASTICALLY understated. Even today, Asian shipyards have people crawling all over them.

My last job, in oil and gas, on a large offshore vessel had I think 4000 people engaged in the shipyard during construction.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#27

Post by SanjayMehta »

webdevver wrote: post #6
yanhangyhy wrote: post #4

This is called mean reversion in history. The UK and Japan are small island countries. They lack the resources and manpower to sustain long-term industrial prosperity. Everything they have is temporary. In the end these industries flow to large nations with vast resources and large pools of technical talent. It used to be the United States. Now it is China absorbing Japan and Korea. This applies not only to shipbuild…

ive long held this take aswell. a lot of people point back at history, with the argument of "we did it before, we can do it now!" but whats to say it wasn't a transient? transients can last 1 year or 100 years, but in the latter case i think its 'hard' for us to believe that it was a fluke, because we view transients that last longer than a human lifespan with a bias of perceived permanence. how could the UK ever com…

> it is fortunate that the UK has its much maligned financial sector - without London, the UK really would be quite doomed.

This is a virtual advantage, which is being eroded as we speak.

Thanks to the overuse of sanctions, many countries have already switched to bilateral currencies.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#28

Post by SanjayMehta »

jacquesm wrote: post #17
webdevver wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ive long held this take aswell. a lot of people point back at history, with the argument of "we did it before, we can do it now!" but whats to say it wasn't a transient? transients can last 1 year or 100 years, but in the latter case i think its 'hard' for us to believe that it was a fluke, because we view transients that last longer than a human lifespan with a bias of perceived permanence. how could the UK ever com…

> how could the UK ever compete with China, or the US, or India, on industry? How could Switzerland? How could Japan? How could the Netherlands? And so on... The UK is still pretty good at plenty of things, but they lacked a specific USP. I think their biggest issues (from an industry perspective) were not so much scale as quality control and the willingness to improve their processes. Compare a German car from the 1…

Their USP was their empire, a source of free raw materials.

Re: How the UK lost its shipbuilding industry

#30

Post by calvinmorrison »

jacquesm wrote: post #11
ggm wrote: post #2

The best time to try and fix this is 20 or 30 years ago, but absent a time machine, the next best time is now. Either you feel this kind of construction process is national-strategic and you ignore the cost over imports, or not. If you don't regard this as a core competency which should be kept in the national register, then sure, buy the ships from other places. But, don't come whining when the national-strategic in…

For a country that is an Island you'd think that the question of whether or not it is 'national-strategic' would have been answered in the affirmative.

For an Island that has been dependent importing most goods for hundreds of years...

I don't even think there's much of a merchant marine fleet left in the UK.

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