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Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

markojs.com

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Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#61

Post by brain_staple »

nolanl wrote: post #42

As someone who has actually worked on JavaScript frameworks, I think Marko is criminally underrated. The compile-time optimizations are extremely impressive: https://markojs.com/docs/explanation/fine-grained-bundling I was not surprised for example that Marko came out very well in this performance comparison: https://www.lorenstew.art/blog/10-kanban-boards

That’s interesting. I’ve always held SvelteKit in high regard for greenfield projects because it balances capability, developer experience, and performance, but I’ll have to give Marko a look. I’d love to see a similar deep dive into Electron style desktop frameworks since that space still feels underexplored compared to mobile. I honestly wouldn’t know where to start for a video game interface, and that bothers me.

Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#62

Post by woleium »

abraxas wrote: post #59

After two decades of this churn we are back to the equivalent of JSP. It was the correct paradigm all along but millennials wouldn't be caught dead working with such a "lame" technology so they bestowed SPA on us and now they are slowly walking it back.

Yes, we go in circles, but there are subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) improvements every iteration. Of course sometimes there are also dead ends.

It is exciting to see what the ingenuity of the next group brings, even though some existing things are lost, but hopefully not forgotten.

Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#63

Post by someguyiguess »

tills13 wrote: post #56

It looks interesting and in a past life I probably would have tried it out but do you know why I like React? Because it's just JavaScript. This ` ` and ` ` syntax is awful.

React has not been just JavaScript for a long time. The react DSL just keeps getting more and more bloated as they add more hooks for more and more edge cases (useFormStatus, useActionState, etc…). It’s becoming just another bloated mess now. And I used to love react! This looks promising though. The syntax looks very straightforward. Even though it’s not “just JavaScript” it is very easily understood by most programmers. I’ve glanced at it for all of 2 minutes and it all makes perfect sense. Functions look like functions. Variables look like variables. I think it looks cool!

Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#64

Post by moritzwarhier »

tills13 wrote: post #56

It looks interesting and in a past life I probably would have tried it out but do you know why I like React? Because it's just JavaScript. This ` ` and ` ` syntax is awful.

Really, this point can't be stated often enough.

It was my reason for switching to React when I learned TypeScript after getting more into JS frameworks via Vue.JS.

My starting point was Vue 2.7, and I started out using string templates haha :)

Even wrote some reactive custom code (without Vue, just regular DOM code) in a customer widget that utilized Object.defineProperty et al, inspired by Vue.

And today, while I'm using React at $job, I also think Vue 3 is probably a solid framework as well.

Last time I checked, they improved on DX of their component and templating system. But I'm not even sure whether they still recommend the v-if etc helper tags.

For what it's worth, even Vue 2 always also supported JSX and later TSX

Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#65

Post by someguyiguess »

abraxas wrote: post #59

After two decades of this churn we are back to the equivalent of JSP. It was the correct paradigm all along but millennials wouldn't be caught dead working with such a "lame" technology so they bestowed SPA on us and now they are slowly walking it back.

I’d venture to say that the idea of a “correct paradigm” is based on a false premise. Why would there be one paradigm to rule them all? Maybe there is more nuance. Maybe certain paradigms are better for certain applications.

Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#66

Post by tshaddox »

afavour wrote: post #57
tills13 wrote: post #56

It looks interesting and in a past life I probably would have tried it out but do you know why I like React? Because it's just JavaScript. This ` ` and ` ` syntax is awful.

I mostly agree with you but React isn’t just JavaScript. JSX is not JavaScript. It’s just that we’re so used to it we don’t consider it notable any more. Worth keeping in mind when you’re looking at a brand new framework.

There are a lot of things people might mean by claiming that something "is just JavaScript," but one possible meaning is that the source code you write can run in the browser without any build whatsoever. For React, that's true with the exception of JSX, which is a very simple and optional syntax transform. (Of course in practice you'll probably want to do module bundling too, but browsers could technically load your ES modules directly from static file storage.

For Marko, that doesn't seem to be the case, but it also doesn't really make sense given the problems that Marko is trying to solve.

Another thing people might mean by "it's just JavaScript" is a much more subjective notion about how similar the overal syntax, control flow, etc. feels to whatever previous JavaScript experience the person has. This meaning is a lot harder to pin down, and in most cases reasonable people could disagree on what is and isn't "just JavaScript" according to this meaning. That said, I would tend to agree that React's templating uses normal JavaScript control flow and composition primitives more so than Marko.

Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#68

Post by andix »

I didn't look deep into Marko yet, but in my opinion JSX is by far the best HTML template language there is. And it's not restricted to React.

Most other template languages hits serious limitations really fast. I tried and hated (for non trivial things): Angular, Handlebars, Razor (dotnet) and Vue (which does support JSX optionally).

Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#69

Post by nchmy »

afavour wrote: post #51
nchmy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, marko comes from Ebay. So, it scales - and being primarily SSR, its a better UX than your preferred frameworks

Pretty much every JS framework has SSR, the question is really how quickly does it hydrate. React typically rates poorly there but Svelte does great, at least partially because it has a compiler to optimize (like Marko does, it appears).

Marko did ssr by default, a decade before the other frameworks decided to bolt-on ssr...

Re: Marko – A declarative, HTML‑based language

#70

Post by Jenk »

abraxas wrote: post #59

After two decades of this churn we are back to the equivalent of JSP. It was the correct paradigm all along but millennials wouldn't be caught dead working with such a "lame" technology so they bestowed SPA on us and now they are slowly walking it back.

> It was the correct paradigm all along

Debateable.

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