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Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

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Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#11

Post by stingraycharles »

IgorPartola wrote: post #8
ssl-3 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. ZFS has been stable in FreeBSD for something like 17 years, and FreeBSD jails have been around for something like 25 years. By the time Docker hit 1.0 (about 11 years ago), the use of snapshots and jails had already been normal parts of life in the FreeBSD space for over half of a decade.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

Yeah I would love to use FreeBSD jails with ZFS and everything, it’s just that the whole cloud and containerization thing happened based on Linux and FreeBSD just never made it into that ecosystem.

You’ll be sacrificing a lot and have to hand-roll a lot if you want your organization to switch from Linux+docker to FreeBSD+jails

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#12

Post by jonhohle »

stingraycharles wrote: post #11
IgorPartola wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

Yeah I would love to use FreeBSD jails with ZFS and everything, it’s just that the whole cloud and containerization thing happened based on Linux and FreeBSD just never made it into that ecosystem. You’ll be sacrificing a lot and have to hand-roll a lot if you want your organization to switch from Linux+docker to FreeBSD+jails

What about FreeBSD+OCI containers https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/oci-containers-on-freebsd...

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#13

Post by BobbyTables2 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #8
ssl-3 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. ZFS has been stable in FreeBSD for something like 17 years, and FreeBSD jails have been around for something like 25 years. By the time Docker hit 1.0 (about 11 years ago), the use of snapshots and jails had already been normal parts of life in the FreeBSD space for over half of a decade.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

I think it also helps that Docker started with an enormous amount of VC funding because their promise was to bring the “App Store” to Linux and enterprise servers.

Who couldn’t become famous with something like a $200M budget?

Feel like they spent it on marketing instead.

Podman is arguably technically superior yet people stay with Docker out of habit…

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#14

Post by temptemptemp111 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #8
ssl-3 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. ZFS has been stable in FreeBSD for something like 17 years, and FreeBSD jails have been around for something like 25 years. By the time Docker hit 1.0 (about 11 years ago), the use of snapshots and jails had already been normal parts of life in the FreeBSD space for over half of a decade.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

[dead]

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#15

Post by randmeerkat »

stingraycharles wrote: post #11
IgorPartola wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

Yeah I would love to use FreeBSD jails with ZFS and everything, it’s just that the whole cloud and containerization thing happened based on Linux and FreeBSD just never made it into that ecosystem. You’ll be sacrificing a lot and have to hand-roll a lot if you want your organization to switch from Linux+docker to FreeBSD+jails

Hacker News serves +4M requests per day using nothing but two FreeBSD servers…

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#16

Post by kbenson »

stingraycharles wrote: post #11
IgorPartola wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

Yeah I would love to use FreeBSD jails with ZFS and everything, it’s just that the whole cloud and containerization thing happened based on Linux and FreeBSD just never made it into that ecosystem. You’ll be sacrificing a lot and have to hand-roll a lot if you want your organization to switch from Linux+docker to FreeBSD+jails

It's all just history now for all I know, but there was work in the past to make Linux containers work on a Solaris fork (SmartOS, specifically) by emulating the Linux syscall table and presenting that to the containers. Joyent did work on this (alas, and there's an excellent and entertaining talk from Bryan Cantrill[1] that goes over it.

I imagine FreeBSD could do something similar if they aren't already. IIRC FreeBSD has a Linux emulation layer (but I don't know how much attention it still gets), and it's had containerization primitives longer than linux, so some amount of filling in the gaps in containerization features and syscall tables (if needed) could possibly yield an OCI compatibility later (for all I know all this already exists).

The problem, and the reason if this doesn't exist why people probably weren't as interested in doing the work, is it would always be "mostly" compatible and working and there would be no guarantee that the underlying software wouldn't exhibit bugs or weird behavior from small behavior differences in the platform when emulating something else. Why open yourself up to the headache when you can just run Linux with containers or build what you want on FreeBSD with jails and their own native containerization primitives.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFIEH3vXPw

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#17

Post by perrygeo »

IgorPartola wrote: post #8
ssl-3 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. ZFS has been stable in FreeBSD for something like 17 years, and FreeBSD jails have been around for something like 25 years. By the time Docker hit 1.0 (about 11 years ago), the use of snapshots and jails had already been normal parts of life in the FreeBSD space for over half of a decade.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

Docker was the first viable containerization technology on Linux. Despite the 15 year late start vs FreeBSD Jails, it's certainly winning by the numbers.

But that has nothing to do with their respective UXs. It's a Linux vs FreeBSD signal.

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#18

Post by blahgeek »

IgorPartola wrote: post #8
ssl-3 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. ZFS has been stable in FreeBSD for something like 17 years, and FreeBSD jails have been around for something like 25 years. By the time Docker hit 1.0 (about 11 years ago), the use of snapshots and jails had already been normal parts of life in the FreeBSD space for over half of a decade.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

> especially when you are on Linux AND on macOS. I can’t run FreeBSD jails or ZFS on macOS, can I? Definitely not with one file and one command.

On macOS, docker actually launches a Linux VM to run containers. If this counts, then yes, you can run FreeBSD jails or zfs on macOS, by running a FreeBSD VM.

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#19

Post by miladyincontrol »

soupbowl wrote: post #5
fukka42 wrote: post #2

Isn't this just docker with extra steps?

This is more like making an immutable linux container using only OS base tools. Docker is a whole stack doing the work for you.

I have to imagine systemd’s nspawn with btrfs integration took much inspiration. Combined with systemd’s service configuration it really makes a wonderful way of running distroless, immutable containers.

Re: Immutable Software Deploys Using ZFS Jails on FreeBSD

#20

Post by ssl-3 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #8
ssl-3 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. ZFS has been stable in FreeBSD for something like 17 years, and FreeBSD jails have been around for something like 25 years. By the time Docker hit 1.0 (about 11 years ago), the use of snapshots and jails had already been normal parts of life in the FreeBSD space for over half of a decade.

I never find arguments like this compelling (but I agree with your sentiment). I don’t much care to fire up the time machine to go back 12 or more years to develop software today. If your argument is that ZFS and jails provide the same functionality but are more stable than Docker. But as is it comes off as “get off my lawn you young whipper snappers”. But at the same time, the reason Docker won was not because it wa…

The argument was just "No [it is not the same]." The rest was just some supporting facts. :)

You've got a good take on things, and I do not disagree with what you've written.

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