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James Watson has died

nytimes.com

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Re: James Watson has died

#111

Post by prmph »

inglor_cz wrote: post #50
bossyTeacher wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High on unkindness and plagarizing behaviour perhaps for not crediting Franklin when he should. We definitely need a debate on men who did amazing contributions to science but were terrible human beings

"We definitely need a debate on men..." What should be the outcome or even content of such debate? They existed; they were great and terrible; they are dead. Given the usual inability of mankind to deal with nuance, some will hate them and some will worship them. In general, it can be expected that people who really shift the scientific status quo will score low on agreeableness. It usually means trampling on someone…

> In general, it can be expected that people who really shift the scientific status quo will score low on agreeableness.

We are not talking about disagreeableness that causes someone to pursue an unconventional path to discovery. We are talking about cheating, pure and simple. I hope you are not claiming that science rests on such behavior.

Re: James Watson has died

#112

Post by pazimzadeh »

catigula wrote: post #54
pazimzadeh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you read the article: "he ignited an uproar by suggesting, in an interview with The Sunday Times in London, that Black people, over all, were not as intelligent as white people. He repeated the assertion in on-camera interviews for a PBS documentary about him, part of the “American Masters” series."

That’s actually a correct belief. That’s what the testing says. Note that I’m not saying the cause, merely that’s simply what the testing indicates and is a statement with a pure basis in fact. There are different group averages in intelligence measurement and people have many feelings about why that is, but nobody credible disputes the mere existence of those data. Anyways, that’s not in quotes so doesn’t answer the…

First of all, what tests?

Second, you’d need to prove it’s genetic and not due to socio-economic factors.

I’m assuming you’ve thought of this?

Re: James Watson has died

#113

Post by poncho_romero »

culi wrote: post #79
echelon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's reframing things too much. There's the experimental data, and then there's the theoretical model. Watson and Crick were already working on a theoretical double helix model prior to discovering Franklin's x-ray crystallography data, but at the time their model was wrong. Franklin produced the x-ray crystallographic data that completed the picture and produced the correct working model. Franklin could have also…

This is not an honest depiction. Watson and Crick didn't just use her stolen work to "confirm" what they were working on. It was the entire basis of the rest of their work Wilkins was her colleague but considered her an "assistant". That's why he felt entitled to take Franklin's Photograph 51 without telling her. It took Franklin another year or so complete the analysis of Photograph 51 and map the position of every…

The work belonged to the lab (according to its director), and Franklin was in the process of moving to a different institution. Additionally, the labs at King’s and Cambridge had regularly been sharing information back and forth. Wilkins showing lab property to the Cambridge team was not unusual or because he looked down on Franklin.

Re: James Watson has died

#114

Post by pazimzadeh »

inglor_cz wrote: post #60
pazimzadeh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you read the article: "he ignited an uproar by suggesting, in an interview with The Sunday Times in London, that Black people, over all, were not as intelligent as white people. He repeated the assertion in on-camera interviews for a PBS documentary about him, part of the “American Masters” series."

Taboos are very culture-specific. I suspect that the above statement would cause approximately zero uproar in China, or the Arabic world.

And that means that black people are inherently less intelligent?

Re: James Watson has died

#115

Post by poncho_romero »

prmph wrote: post #111
inglor_cz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We definitely need a debate on men..." What should be the outcome or even content of such debate? They existed; they were great and terrible; they are dead. Given the usual inability of mankind to deal with nuance, some will hate them and some will worship them. In general, it can be expected that people who really shift the scientific status quo will score low on agreeableness. It usually means trampling on someone…

> In general, it can be expected that people who really shift the scientific status quo will score low on agreeableness. We are not talking about disagreeableness that causes someone to pursue an unconventional path to discovery. We are talking about cheating, pure and simple. I hope you are not claiming that science rests on such behavior.

It’s fair to say Watson should have given more credit to the work of Franklin and Gosling, but to claim it’s “cheating, pure and simple” is clearly revisionist history.

Re: James Watson has died

#116

Post by poncho_romero »

prmph wrote: post #107
khazhoux wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, it was a photograph she took 8 months earlier, and she didn't realize its significance or implication. If useful data is shelved, is it still useful? For Watson, the image corroborated the double-helix theory and caused them to focus exclusively on that (instead of triple or single). The photograph itself did not deliver a DNA model.

All these excuses for a blatant case of cheating... > she didn't realize its significance or implication. That does not change the fact that they plagiarized and cheated. They could have collaborated with her and/or credited her

They did collaborate with each other. The labs at King’s and Cambridge shared information at different times. Franklin invited Watson to her lecture. She and Wilkins went to see the double helix model when it was completed. You’re treating a sensationalized version of the story as fact.

Re: James Watson has died

#117

Post by krapp »

sparkie wrote: post #106
krapp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Race isn't biological, it's a social and political construct. The social and political construct known as "Asians" comprises about 60% of the global population. Also, IQ is not a measure of intelligence. There are cultural reasons why some people in some "Asian" countries may do better on average in academics, such as stronger familial bonds, peer pressure and a greater cultural value placed on scholastic achieve…

It's most likely a combination of both genetics and society - neither are absolutes. There is no concrete evidence that intelligence is purely a social construct, nor that it is genetic. We simply don't know. People get cancelled not for saying that it is genetic, but for questioning whether it may be. Of course, we will never know if we're not allowed to ask. Cancel culture is anti-science. Watson may have been raci…

We are allowed to ask this question, and we have asked it, and we've found that the evidence does not validate the premise of inherent racial intelligence or other racial essentialist views[0]. Claims like "Asians have the highest IQ" are not meaningful or scientifically valid.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Research...

Re: James Watson has died

#118

Post by robotresearcher »

shevy-java wrote: post #40
sharadov wrote: post #39

Wasn't his partner Crick high on LSD when he discovered the double-helix structure of DNA?

I am not sure. What I do know is that they used to go to pubs, so they probably used to drink pints.

Specifically The Eagle in Cambridge. Close to Kings College, and a cosy and storied pub it is. The back bar has photos and soot-signatures of air crews from all over the world, a tradition that started during WWII.

Re: James Watson has died

#119

Post by prmph »

efilife wrote: post #82
JKCalhoun wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wow, good genes! Said with irony? I mean, the guy was into eugenics—thought some races are smarter than others.

But isn't this true? Asians are proven to have the highest IQ

I thought we were beyond this argument, no? There are so many things with all the implications here it's hard to know where to start.

You do realize that picking a certain concept "intelligence", defining it to include certain characteristics, tying it to a certain notion of "fitness", defining "Asian", and finally, tying "asian" to "intelligence", are all matters of definition, choice, and perception and nothing fundamental about reality, right?

Re: James Watson has died

#120

Post by LarsDu88 »

aerostable_slug wrote: post #101
LarsDu88 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't come off as self-deprecating at all, although I see that he had a grandmother from Ireland (unclear if she was ethnically Irish or English) How could it possibly be self-deprecating if he was specifically shitting on "Irish women"?

It is if he would describe a member of his own family this way, which I'm betting he would. He was rather famously described as a "tough Irishman" by his longtime friend, biologist Mark Ptashne.

I'm surprised he identified as such. Dude is from Chicago but talks like someone from England.
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