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James Watson has died

nytimes.com

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Re: James Watson has died

#101

Post by aerostable_slug »

LarsDu88 wrote: post #94
aerostable_slug wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> racist things about Irish people It's a trait that some people of Irish descent, like Watson, share. See also: self-deprecating humor Greek, Jewish, Italian, and members of other ethnicities are sometimes known for. The difference is that Watson just didn't care to read the room before letting loose.

It didn't come off as self-deprecating at all, although I see that he had a grandmother from Ireland (unclear if she was ethnically Irish or English) How could it possibly be self-deprecating if he was specifically shitting on "Irish women"?

It is if he would describe a member of his own family this way, which I'm betting he would. He was rather famously described as a "tough Irishman" by his longtime friend, biologist Mark Ptashne.

Re: James Watson has died

#102

Post by jaaustin »

I want to use this opportunity to shill possibly the best history of science ever written: The Eighth Day of Creation [1], which describes the history of structural biology, including Watson’s various contributions. He comes across as a precocious asshole, not without talent but with a stronger eye towards self-advancement.

[1] https://www.cshlpress.com/default.tpl?cart=17625586661954464...

Re: James Watson has died

#103

Post by terminalshort »

krapp wrote: post #86
efilife wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't this true? Asians are proven to have the highest IQ

No. Race isn't biological, it's a social and political construct. The social and political construct known as "Asians" comprises about 60% of the global population. Also, IQ is not a measure of intelligence. There are cultural reasons why some people in some "Asian" countries may do better on average in academics, such as stronger familial bonds, peer pressure and a greater cultural value placed on scholastic achieve…

If it was a cultural thing it would be a multi modal distribution.

Re: James Watson has died

#104

Post by ghuffed »

LarsDu88 wrote: post #71

Years ago I had the pleasure of sitting in on one of his talks on longevity. Other than the casual racism and sexism (Watson is the only person in my entire life I've seen say racist things about Irish people), he made a big comment on Linus Pauling's obsession towards the end of his life regarding Vitamin C consumption. The main idea is that primates such as humans and chimps lost the ability to synthesize vitamin C…

[flagged]

Re: James Watson has died

#105

Post by sega_sai »

He clearly was an exceptional scientist, but also likely an a*hole. Also unfortunately when people get older, many people's negative qualities are amplified. That seem to have happened with Watson and has tarnished his legacy.

Re: James Watson has died

#106

Post by sparkie »

krapp wrote: post #86
efilife wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't this true? Asians are proven to have the highest IQ

No. Race isn't biological, it's a social and political construct. The social and political construct known as "Asians" comprises about 60% of the global population. Also, IQ is not a measure of intelligence. There are cultural reasons why some people in some "Asian" countries may do better on average in academics, such as stronger familial bonds, peer pressure and a greater cultural value placed on scholastic achieve…

It's most likely a combination of both genetics and society - neither are absolutes. There is no concrete evidence that intelligence is purely a social construct, nor that it is genetic. We simply don't know.

People get cancelled not for saying that it is genetic, but for questioning whether it may be. Of course, we will never know if we're not allowed to ask. Cancel culture is anti-science.

Watson may have been racist, but questioning whether there is a relationship between genetics and intelligence by itself is not racism.

Re: James Watson has died

#107

Post by prmph »

khazhoux wrote: post #100
culi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an honest depiction of the full picture. At the time, scientists already suspected a corkscrew structure but there was disagreement between what that looked like or whether it was double or triple helixed. Franklin's key experiments resulted in the Photograph 51 that almost single-handedly proved the structure. Before Franklin could publish her data, Wilkins—without the consent or knowledge of Franklin—to…

In fact, it was a photograph she took 8 months earlier, and she didn't realize its significance or implication. If useful data is shelved, is it still useful? For Watson, the image corroborated the double-helix theory and caused them to focus exclusively on that (instead of triple or single). The photograph itself did not deliver a DNA model.

All these excuses for a blatant case of cheating...

> she didn't realize its significance or implication.

That does not change the fact that they plagiarized and cheated. They could have collaborated with her and/or credited her

Re: James Watson has died

#108

Post by vondur »

echelon wrote: post #42
sharadov wrote: post #39

Wasn't his partner Crick high on LSD when he discovered the double-helix structure of DNA?

You're probably thinking about Mullis, inventor of PCR [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis

He gave a talk at where I worked and did make reference to an LSD trip in reference to the PCR process.

Re: James Watson has died

#109

Post by kulahan »

sega_sai wrote: post #105

He clearly was an exceptional scientist, but also likely an a*hole. Also unfortunately when people get older, many people's negative qualities are amplified. That seem to have happened with Watson and has tarnished his legacy.

Who cares? Lots of assholes have done lots of great things. Some of the most important people in history have been assholes.

Re: James Watson has died

#110

Post by clueless »

lordnacho wrote: post #80
gaogao wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 2007, the scientist, who once worked at the University of Cambridge's Cavendish Laboratory, told the Times newspaper that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really". > While his hope was that everybody was equal, he added, "people who have to deal with black e…

I always wonder with that kind of racist explanation, how the line of reasoning goes. Suppose for the sake of argument, there's a place where everyone has 10 IQ points less, on average, than the West. The Flynn effect is about 14 points over a few decades. How do you square those things? Did the West not have a society a few decades ago? Is there some reason you can't have civilization with slightly dumber people? Th…

In a clean game-theoretic terms, without making any moral or ideological claims about “who is smarter”, we’ll treat underlying advantage as any positional asset (intelligence, wealth, charisma, skill, social capital, etc.). The question is: If a subset of players has an advantage in a repeated, large-group game, how do they best play to maximize payoff and stability?

Here's the strategy chatgpt came up with (amongst many other):

What Not to Say (Avoid These)

Don’t describe intelligence or talent as intrinsic, innate, or permanent. This triggers resentment and identity defense.

Don’t use language that signals “I am ahead of you.”

Don’t use your advantage to win every interaction—save leverage for important conflicts.

People tolerate talent. They hate being made aware of being lower in the hierarchy.

_____

Is it possible the backlash to Watson could be viewed from this game theocratic perspective, and not that he was racist and wrong?

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