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Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

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101–110 of 186 posts

Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#101

How many centuries did it take for civil engineering, for example, to become the codified, standardized, and respected calling it is now? While I'm sure "software development" will leapfrog that span of time, but it's only been 75 years since the discipline was invented to begin with (Lovelace's work was more applied math than anything else, but the starting point is arguably between then and, let's say, FORTRAN?). T…

Well, yes, but after the 75 years, don't you think that "too young" argument is getting old? Nuclear energy, medical imaging, and the space part of aerospace are all younger than "software development". These are all mature industries highly codified, and they also all also encompass software development among other things. Could it be that software development isn't an engineering discipline at all but a supporting…

> Writing isn't an engineering discipline. And all industries rely heavily on writing. Could it be that writing software is just writing for computers and as such could only by codified within another engineering discipline and not by its own?

I think this is a very good point!

If you are writing the control software for a rocketship's avionics, you probably need to have some understanding of aeronautics, control theory, signal processing etc. Ultimately the act of writing the software is merely an expression of all the math and theory that you have spent a lifetime acquiring.

Inversely, the engineer who is speccing out the control software for a nuclear reactor is essentially writing the software for it. It's just in human readable format such that the human journeyman who's actually slinging the code can implement it. By the time the code is being written, the engineering work has been done already.

Programming is much closer to bricklaying or assembling or machining. Software engineering is much closer to architecture design, and does not involve a lot of code writing.

Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#102
post #12

This again? In general, Software Engineering is not engineering. It's not a technical issue, it's a 'software doesn't really kill people so government doesn't intervene in it'. In the case where the software is life and death it's generally developed in ways similar to 'real' engineering Fundamentally folks built building/structures without engineering, just so consistently caused death and destruction that govt step…

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Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#103
post #16

This is closely related to why Sussman and Abelson stopped teaching SICP: it is not possible to engineer software any more because systems are too complicated to completely understand and abstractions hide too many behaviors. So now we do "programming by poking" to understand what the system does instead of making it correct by construction. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5335 We just tinker. That's all we can d…

Software as science.

Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#105
post #12

This again? In general, Software Engineering is not engineering. It's not a technical issue, it's a 'software doesn't really kill people so government doesn't intervene in it'. In the case where the software is life and death it's generally developed in ways similar to 'real' engineering Fundamentally folks built building/structures without engineering, just so consistently caused death and destruction that govt step…

Government did not invent the discipline of engineering. This is just completely backwards. How do you think all of those engineering organizations came up with those manuals and regulations, were they not doing any engineering until they published a manual? Complete nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ivqWN4L3zU

Things software engineers believe about history/government...

Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#106
post #46
post #12

This again? In general, Software Engineering is not engineering. It's not a technical issue, it's a 'software doesn't really kill people so government doesn't intervene in it'. In the case where the software is life and death it's generally developed in ways similar to 'real' engineering Fundamentally folks built building/structures without engineering, just so consistently caused death and destruction that govt step…

> it's a 'software doesn't really kill people so government doesn't intervene in it' I think we've reached the point where this is no longer true - self driving cars, supposed robots you can take home, LLMs being unleashed to randomly guess at medical data or write software to do verification or sensitive tasks. I think software engineering is definitely engineering, we've just been successful in lobbying against pro…

Pet Food Store App does not really need Real Engineering, no

Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#107

What I believe makes the distinction between engineer and non-engineer in the software world so difficult to pin down is that software is so powerful that most non-engineers can end up easily doing engineer-level work. For example, a mechanical engineer is someone that designs mechanical systems. In order to do that, they will need specialized and very expensive equipment, and the end result will be produced with mac…

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Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#108
post #12

This again? In general, Software Engineering is not engineering. It's not a technical issue, it's a 'software doesn't really kill people so government doesn't intervene in it'. In the case where the software is life and death it's generally developed in ways similar to 'real' engineering Fundamentally folks built building/structures without engineering, just so consistently caused death and destruction that govt step…

Software "engineering" doesn't kill people instantly in a flashy way, sure, but it has become more like leaded gasoline, a widespread low-level harm whose effects are increasingly evident in hindsight. You pretty much can't go more than a couple of days without hearing about another massive consumer data compromise by hackers, CVE, major services outage, etc. At some point, there is going to be a software related incident that is bad enough that the public and government is going to demand accountability.

Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#109
Huh, such a self-deprecating take on software engineering can only come from a software engineer.

If the author spent more time with people working in other "real" engineering or science fields, he would know how much slop and lazy reasoning there is in there.

For a visual confirmation, look at how much faulty and badly designed cars or house electrical appliances get released every year. Things which break after a couple weeks of use.

Quality is rare everywhere, not just in SWE.

Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?

#110
post #12

This again? In general, Software Engineering is not engineering. It's not a technical issue, it's a 'software doesn't really kill people so government doesn't intervene in it'. In the case where the software is life and death it's generally developed in ways similar to 'real' engineering Fundamentally folks built building/structures without engineering, just so consistently caused death and destruction that govt step…

> This again? In general, Software Engineering is not engineering.

Software Engineering is definitely Engineering. But Software Development usually doesn't practice it. I've got a degree in Computer Engineering and took SE courses and at least at the companies I've been at, we never did any of that. You can't use formal methods without a formalized specification, and I never even got a written specification of any project I worked on in 20+ years. Regardless, Software Engineers don't wear stripey hats and are not real engineers.

There's not much structual engineering in single family home construction either. A couple story wood frame building needs to be pretty exotic to have structural issues (but soft story buildings used to be common and collapse with strong earthquakes)

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