Some programmers are engineers, but not all programmers are engineers. A lot of us are plumbers, basically. We connect together things other people have engineered. There's nothing wrong with plumbing; it's an important, honorable profession. It's just a different thing than engineering. And I'm not saying that a really good programmer transforms into an engineer by virtue of being really productive, or smart, or whatever—I'm saying engineering is a specific activity that most of us don't do every day as part of our jobs. So, to the point of this article, I'd like evidence to be gathered from engineers, specifically, and not programmers like me.
Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
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Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#12This again? In general, Software Engineering is not engineering.
It's not a technical issue, it's a 'software doesn't really kill people so government doesn't intervene in it'. In the case where the software is life and death it's generally developed in ways similar to 'real' engineering
Fundamentally folks built building/structures without engineering, just so consistently caused death and destruction that govt stepped in and started requiring licensed trained folks, approval trails etc. without this real world intervention regular physical 'engineering' the same crap shoot as software engineering.
Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#13Building software is usually a craftsmanship task.
Software can be engineered, but It’s rare and expensive so it’s only built that way when the cost is justified, as when building life critical systems (manned aircraft/spacecraft flight controllers) or security critical components like ssl stacks, cryptographic algorithm implementations, etc.
Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#14What I believe makes the distinction between engineer and non-engineer in the software world so difficult to pin down is that software is so powerful that most non-engineers can end up easily doing engineer-level work. For example, a mechanical engineer is someone that designs mechanical systems. In order to do that, they will need specialized and very expensive equipment, and the end result will be produced with mac…
"For example, a mechanical engineer is someone that designs mechanical systems. In order to do that, they will need specialized and very expensive equipment, and the end result will be produced with machines costing hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars."
Not really. The difficulty to manufacture something isn't tied to the ability to engineer it. In fact, good engineers try to make the item easier/cheaper to manufacture. Take the AK-47 vs the M-16 - one used more exotic (for the time) materials with a more expensive and involved production process. The other was made with looser tolerances out of cheap stamped steel and wood that could be cranked out quickly. Yet they were both (eventually) of similar effectiveness.
These days, we have CAD and 3D printing available to craftsmen. If you want to build it out of metal and make it reproducible, you can build and print the parts to create molds to cast them from. Same thing for people how have a lathe and/or milling machine. In some cases you can get them used for a few hundred dollars. Record your dimensions and process and you can crank out copies of items with great results - no engineering training needed.
Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#15> More than 20 years ago, I corresponded with famous UFO researcher Stanton T. Friedman. His central claim was that “the evidence is overwhelming that some UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft”.
I don't believe in UFOs. But if I had to believe in UFOs, this would be my position:
We have had modern humans for 500 000 years [1]. If it takes 10 000 years to make it from stone age to space age, we have theoretically had time to make that 50 times over. Maybe there was a previous version of a human civilization [2], then wiped out by ice ages or something, but a small number of highly advanced humans have survived and keep hiding from us. I think this could be somewhat more plausible than interstellar travel.
[1] Or maybe 1 million https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45510582
Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#16This is closely related to why Sussman and Abelson stopped teaching SICP: it is not possible to engineer software any more because systems are too complicated to completely understand and abstractions hide too many behaviors. So now we do "programming by poking" to understand what the system does instead of making it correct by construction.
http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5335
We just tinker. That's all we can do to get stuff done.
Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#17The thing with software is that you need to feel the pain in order to learn something. For example, when you lose all your work due to a bad HDD, you learn the importance of backups. But we also learn from others telling you that you need backups. So you make a copy of your data, but on the same hdd. Because you really haven't learned the lesson. Same with test driven development, you can have an entire career without software regression bugs, so you have no reason to use TDD. No pain no gain!
Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#18Ask this question in the 1940s and they would tell you it’s math. We are making machines that do math to kill Nazis. Now take this vacuum tube and plug it in over there and then go get me a cigarette.
Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#19Most of software isn't engineering, it's just building. It's like a lot of these custom car/motorcycle builders vs actual engineers designing for a major manufacturer. You are both building a product but one places a lot more rigor on the science, data, and testing behind the decisions. That doesn’t mean the custom builders don't build good stuff, just that you won't get answers to things like how much force a partic…
If I understand your analogy correctly, what science in involved directly in software dev other than used directly in already existing models like medicine? (and even this isn't exactly science, as medicine is practice, not analytic discourse). Engineering relies on science, particularly building, vehicles, etc.
Re: Is Software the UFOlogy of Engineering Disciplines?
#20This is closely related to why Sussman and Abelson stopped teaching SICP: it is not possible to engineer software any more because systems are too complicated to completely understand and abstractions hide too many behaviors. So now we do "programming by poking" to understand what the system does instead of making it correct by construction. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5335 We just tinker. That's all we can d…
There have been serious efforts at software engineering, like the OOP movement in the 1980s and 90s to construct software very methodically.
Programmers hate it and rejected it.
To be fair, it does tend to create its own pathology. Instead of a layer cake made of congealed spaghetti, you tend to get over-engineering.
https://github.com/Hello-World-EE/Java-Hello-World-Enterpris...
Software engineering leads to software over-engineering because unlike in physical material engineering there is no capital or material cost to push back against complexity. You can just add things, and add things, and add things, forever, and it costs very little (a bit of RAM and CPU but that's cheap).
I have this weird hypothesis that part of why methodical "correct" software engineering fails is that it succeeds. It is able to manage complexity, which allows complexity to grow without bound. A mountain of ugly shit will start crashing in mysterious ways if it gets too complex, which has the virtue of limiting complexity.
A root problem is that programmers tend to add complexity, not remove it, and the incentive structure of the software business tends to encourage this. Each new bit of complexity or layer is something you could build a business around, or a feature you could sell. Nobody pays for simplicity. It has value, often massive value, but it's not intuitive. In what other domain would you pay more for the absence of something? This would make sense in software since simplicity is harder than complexity, but it feels weird and wrong.