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I only got that job because I’m a girl

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Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#51

Post by btilly »

columbo wrote: post #43
btilly wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not politically correct to say that women are riskier hires than men. But given biology and current culture, women of child-bearing age clearly are riskier hires. Women have non-trivial odds of getting pregnant, sometimes unexpectedly. In the event of pregnancy, moms usually require more time off than fathers, and are more likely to never return to their jobs. That said, I am sympathetic to the position that em…

Regardless of if I agree with this statement (I don't) making a public statement like this is a very dangerous choice. You've effectively said "I wont hire women because they might go form babbies" on a public forum. If you ever have or ever will turn down a woman for a position regardless of her abilities and this comment is found and tracked back to you that candidate (and any previous candidate you ever turned dow…

You've effectively said "I wont hire women because they might go form babbies" on a public forum.

That conclusion can only be drawn by people who perform simplistic keyword matching and fail to comprehend what I've actually said.

Did you notice that I've also pointed out several times that there is some evidence that companies who are more willing to hire women are likely to financially perform better? And that I've also pointed out repeatedly that discriminating on the basis of gender (either way) is illegal?

There is a pretty big gulf between saying, "Here is the standard argument for discrimination" and saying "I advocate discrimination" or even "I would personally discriminate."

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#52

Post by hannahmitt »

btilly wrote: post #17
glaak wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen a white person not be good at their job? Yet you don't associate their failures with their race. Why do so with black people? Also, read the studies. Black people and women actually have a harder time getting a job. So by your logic, of people getting jobs that they may not be the most qualified for, you'd be better off hiring women or black people. They have to be more qualified into to be seen as…

Have you ever seen a white person not be good at their job? Yet you don't associate their failures with their race. Why do so with black people? The specific situation that is burned in my mind was a black girl who was in a math PhD program at the same time that I was. The department wound up bending their rules to the breaking point to give her a Masters on her way out because nobody wanted to risk the discriminatio…

Do you count the leniency in assuming white people have more legitimate credentials?

And how often are people hiring purely by the program of study? Can you affirmative action your way into top honors or great job experience? For the latter, it appears it's the opposite.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#53

Post by btilly »

Volpe wrote: post #42
btilly wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen a white person not be good at their job? Yet you don't associate their failures with their race. Why do so with black people? The specific situation that is burned in my mind was a black girl who was in a math PhD program at the same time that I was. The department wound up bending their rules to the breaking point to give her a Masters on her way out because nobody wanted to risk the discriminatio…

Discrimination causes a lot of problems, including that of having to 'over-correct'.

The assumption that past discrimination justifies reverse discrimination is a dangerous one, and gives lots of opportunities for those who want to discriminate to justify it to themselves.

The US military addressed this exact problem by making extra resources available to black recruits who were interested in becoming officers to assist them in performing to the exact same standards that were required of whites. The result? They managed to achieve their diversity goals among officers. And the expectations that you should reasonably have of an officer do not depend on race.

I like the approach that the US military took to affirmative action. By contrast I object to the way that our educational establishment routinely makes much better resources available to help white students achieve in one set of schools, while shoving black students through grades regardless of achievement in a different set of schools. Which then lets us all cry about the horrible discrimination when employers fail to treat high school diplomas equally for white and black kids.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#54

Post by bravura »

moistgorilla wrote: post #31
bravura wrote: post #25

Cue up a lot of people who are going to use rhetoric to take make a "reasonable", "non-dogmatic" issue about this topic, while only barely acknowledging sub-conscious prejudice for or against. I don't have a solution here, I'm sorry. But whenever I read a comment that sounds too cool, even-headed, and rhetorical, I know I'm going to be hit with some contrived hypotheticals and not much supporting data. I don't know h…

I acknowledge that there is a huge sub-conscious prejudice. I don't like how society doesn't focus on all of the types of prejudices that exist. Like I posted before, there is the halo effect, prejudice against women, fat people, old people, people of a different race, people with disabilities, etc. I refuse to believe that this person (although she is qualified) managed to be hired completely free from any bias and…

I agree that there probably was bias in her hiring. Positive? Negative? What is clear is that there is bias when it comes to the gamut of groups that you mentioned.

In certain circumstances, this bias manifests as favorable, and sometimes it is unfavorable. (A particularly company might go out of their way, or be negatively prejudiced, respectively.)

Also, some particular people are able to use bias to their advantage overall in their lives. Whereas other people are harmed by bias, overall, because they don't work around it.

It's a really tricky issue.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#55

Post by tsotha »

glaak wrote: post #12
btilly wrote: post #7

It is easy to rail against employers for showing the complained about bias against minorities and women. And doing so is clearly against the law. However playing Devil's advocate it is justifiable by the fact that hiring decisions are naturally risk adverse. The difference between a perfect hire and a merely good one is typically not that big. The difference between a hire that works out and one that does not is huge…

Have you ever seen a white person not be good at their job? Yet you don't associate their failures with their race. Why do so with black people? Also, read the studies. Black people and women actually have a harder time getting a job. So by your logic, of people getting jobs that they may not be the most qualified for, you'd be better off hiring women or black people. They have to be more qualified into to be seen as…

>Have you ever seen a white person not be good at their job? Yet you don't associate their failures with their race. Why do so with black people?

That's one of the better arguments against "affirmative action". Competent minorities and women are naturally lumped in with people working the system and pay the price in terms of reputation.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#56

Post by columbo »

btilly wrote: post #51
columbo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of if I agree with this statement (I don't) making a public statement like this is a very dangerous choice. You've effectively said "I wont hire women because they might go form babbies" on a public forum. If you ever have or ever will turn down a woman for a position regardless of her abilities and this comment is found and tracked back to you that candidate (and any previous candidate you ever turned dow…

You've effectively said "I wont hire women because they might go form babbies" on a public forum. That conclusion can only be drawn by people who perform simplistic keyword matching and fail to comprehend what I've actually said. Did you notice that I've also pointed out several times that there is some evidence that companies who are more willing to hire women are likely to financially perform better? And that I've…

> That conclusion can only be drawn by people who perform simplistic keyword matching and fail to comprehend what I've actually said.

Sure, I could have misread everything you've posted but imagine the lawyer for a potential failed hire reading your posts and slicing out exact paragraphs of your own wording:

> given biology and current culture, women of child-bearing age clearly are riskier hires

> Women have non-trivial odds of getting pregnant, sometimes unexpectedly

> In the event of pregnancy, moms usually require more time off than fathers, and are more likely to never return to their jobs.

> I personally have seen a couple of situations where a black person had credentials only because of affirmative action and did not deserve those credentials.

> I've also have seen multiple cases where a woman gets hired, gets pregnant, and then you lose that employee in a painful way.

> I have never witnessed anything involving a white person that was anywhere near being similarly egregious.

> white people were not given anywhere near as much leniency.

> Can you really blame an employer for leaning towards being risk adverse in this situation?

Call me full of shit. Say I'm blowing all this out of context. Whatever you want... but realize that those quotes are pretty deadly rounds of ammo to a lawyer. Don't believe me? Forward them to your HR department and see what they think.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#57

Post by tsotha »

hannahmitt wrote: post #52
btilly wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen a white person not be good at their job? Yet you don't associate their failures with their race. Why do so with black people? The specific situation that is burned in my mind was a black girl who was in a math PhD program at the same time that I was. The department wound up bending their rules to the breaking point to give her a Masters on her way out because nobody wanted to risk the discriminatio…

Do you count the leniency in assuming white people have more legitimate credentials? And how often are people hiring purely by the program of study? Can you affirmative action your way into top honors or great job experience? For the latter, it appears it's the opposite.

>Can you affirmative action your way into top honors or great job experience?

Well, there's Elizabeth Warren...

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#58

Post by Volpe »

btilly wrote: post #53
Volpe wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discrimination causes a lot of problems, including that of having to 'over-correct'.

The assumption that past discrimination justifies reverse discrimination is a dangerous one, and gives lots of opportunities for those who want to discriminate to justify it to themselves. The US military addressed this exact problem by making extra resources available to black recruits who were interested in becoming officers to assist them in performing to the exact same standards that were required of whites. The…

> The assumption that past discrimination justifies reverse discrimination is a dangerous one

I wasn't saying it was justified, I was saying it was a problem. One that doesn't exist if there was no discrimination.

Racial Discrimination is racial discrimination, there is no such thing as 'well justified' racial discrimination. Saying that "Well I know that Blacks' go through school easier so their degree means less" is no better than "They are black, I don't like them". It just helps people sleep better at night to think they have a 'good reason' for being racist.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#59

Post by bencxr »

I'm not saying the poster got the job because she was a girl (or not), but the bottom line (imo) is that you have to play the hand you're dealt.

Some people are born rich, into high society etc and some are not. I don't see people unhappy that others are saying they "got the job because their dad was powerful".

Whether or not there was a real advantage doesn't matter. If there was a real advantage, well thank you, I'd take that advantage. If not, prove it. Either way, you still don't deserve to feel upset over it.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#60

Post by btilly »

hannahmitt wrote: post #52
btilly wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen a white person not be good at their job? Yet you don't associate their failures with their race. Why do so with black people? The specific situation that is burned in my mind was a black girl who was in a math PhD program at the same time that I was. The department wound up bending their rules to the breaking point to give her a Masters on her way out because nobody wanted to risk the discriminatio…

Do you count the leniency in assuming white people have more legitimate credentials? And how often are people hiring purely by the program of study? Can you affirmative action your way into top honors or great job experience? For the latter, it appears it's the opposite.

Can you affirmative action your way into top honors or great job experience?

In the specific case that I'm thinking of, thanks to affirmative action she had academic honors until, but not including grad school. (She did get a masters though.)

I've encountered some black people in the work place who I suspect were continuing to coast on affirmative action and willingness to accuse others of discrimination. They are a clear minority of the blacks that I've worked with. Furthermore I've never seen any of that minority manage to get good referrals from anyone I'd be interested in working with.

That said, there are some dysfunctional organizations out there where managers can find it easier to promote their problem employees to be someone else's problem than they do to fire them. Someone whose success was entirely dependent on affirmative action might do well in such an organization. My last experience with such an organization was fairly brief and was about 15 years ago. (I reached the point where I had to decide between finding a better job or filing a sexual harassment lawsuit against the man I was reporting to. Yes, that happens to men as well. I chose finding a better job.)

Update: I should clarify that my opinions about the relative competency of people in that program came from knowing them for several years, and from being in classes together.

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