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Solarpunk is happening in Africa

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531–540 of 616 posts

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ain't just tech in the developing world. even in the Big IT Enterprise "support" is a byword that appears in all discussions. it's not enough to have, or to build, you gotta maintain, fix, replace, and eventually, remove. those discussions aren't fun or sexy, and everyone hates when you tank a blue-sky "it'll fix everything" discussion with the unpleasant realities of long-term care and feeding

> it's not enough to have, or to build, you gotta maintain, fix, replace, and eventually, remove. Indeed. I think many in the West fail to appreciate - and take for granted - the cultural dimensions (which include cultures of knowledge, skill transmission, cultivation, and development, and also worldview[0]) as well as the economic ecosystems and supply chains involved. Dropping off a tractor in Africa or a bulldozer…

It's not just a failure to appreciate, it's an outright demonization of many of these observations as racist/imperialist. One of the prime motivators for this kind of development "aid" is the mistaken belief that the only issue is a lack of resources or external exploitation, and if you just provide the resources and/or remove the exploitation a given place will naturally turn into an enlightened Western nation-equivalent. Maybe with some fun unique cultural festivals, local cuisine, and some harmless, quirky native dances in exotic outfits!

Meanwhile even in the West it's easy to find people who win the lottery and are broke a year later, or rich celebrities/pro athletes who make tons of money and lose it all, or die with far less than you'd expect. Those people are laughed at and/or pitied, because even they are held to to a higher standard than some poor 3rd-worlder who's just a pure victim

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#533
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same report says that 90% of those kits are repairable and the most common failure point is the battery and also that the vast majority of users hold on to their devices in hopes of repairing them in the future, as there exists some kind of repair service, it just isn't up to scale.

The repair service is really expensive for subtle reasons. First of all there is the repair itself, but there isn’t any collection service so you need to travel (often a full day) to get to a repair centre. Then travel back. Not open on the weekend so you have to do it during the week, meaning you are also loosing 2 days of income. Then you have to go and get it once it’s done. Total cost of repair for people using t…

> First of all there is the repair itself, but there isn’t any collection service so you need to travel (often a full day) to get to a repair centre

This is a good reminder of how much we in the developed world take our publicly funded transportation infrastructure for granted, which allows a repairman to easily reach us or vice versions.

This mirrors our public health infrastructure, which in the US at least is being degraded, the consequences of which we're all likely to experience soon.

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's their citizens who sacrifice to make solar power cheap enough. No. Manufacturing labor cost in China is not cheap. In fact since 2012 or so, it is more expensive than in most of Asia. Companies who want cheap labor look elsewhere. https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-a... (Archive link: https://archive.fo/tdhXJ ) China is also the only major economy where wages have increased at the same…

Median wage in urban China is about $20k/year. That is objectively dirt-cheap compared to basically all of the west. Yes, wages might be even cheaper in neighboring countries, but those lag behind in infrastructure, education, political stability, availability of capital and network effects from existing industry (and are thus not a viable alternative to China yet for lots of things).

Manufacturing labor cost in China has surpassed parts of Eastern Europe.

I agree that infrastructure, supply chains, political stability, and education are the primary drivers for attracting manufacturing to China.

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#535

This revolution also has a dark side: People are paying off these devices and then once they have paid them off, they break and people in these areas don’t have the skills or resources to fix them. This has led to over 250 million of the units lying around broken in peoples homes, leading to solar being one of the fastest growing e-waste streams in the world. It’s hardly solar punk to sell people cheap crap at a 10x…

Africans have more repair skills than westerners. Due to cost of things being expensive, repair culture is really big over there and in other 3rd world countries. You would be surprised at what folks can fix over there.

"Africans have more repair skills than westerners."

… which is why our roads are so much better than those in Switzerland.

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Median wage in urban China is about $20k/year. That is objectively dirt-cheap compared to basically all of the west. Yes, wages might be even cheaper in neighboring countries, but those lag behind in infrastructure, education, political stability, availability of capital and network effects from existing industry (and are thus not a viable alternative to China yet for lots of things).

Manufacturing labor cost in China has surpassed parts of Eastern Europe. I agree that infrastructure, supply chains, political stability, and education are the primary drivers for attracting manufacturing to China.

> Manufacturing labor cost in China has surpassed parts of Eastern Europe.

This is a good point, but I think that only really the underdeveloped/underindustrialized/unstable parts really qualify, possibly Romania, Serbia, Ukraine, with similar caveats than Chinas neighbors.

Despite all this a lot of European manufacturing (e.g. cars), has shifted into the more viable low-wage countries over the last decades (despite language barriers and very high automation; talking mainly Poland, Slovenia, Hungary here).

You still need labor to build, maintain and operate factories, even if they are filled with robots; people here underestimate the benefit of cheap labor by a lot.

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#537

This revolution also has a dark side: People are paying off these devices and then once they have paid them off, they break and people in these areas don’t have the skills or resources to fix them. This has led to over 250 million of the units lying around broken in peoples homes, leading to solar being one of the fastest growing e-waste streams in the world. It’s hardly solar punk to sell people cheap crap at a 10x…

The somethingpunk settings are supposed to be gritty and dominated by exploitative megacorps, though! As a rule, the thingpunk needs a Man dominating by means of the thing to rebel against. The only reason "solarpunk" has gotten such a rosy image is that its proponents tend to fancy themselves the Tessier-Ashpools were it to come to pass.

I guess even cyberpunk now has a bimodal supporter base - there are the would-be punks, and then there are the would-be (and actual) Zuckerbergs building the torment nexus/metaverse.

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Electricity is priced at the edge entirely because demand must match supply at all times. You either meet all electric demand or someone will go without power. There's also more to it than just that. Supply-demand imbalance affects the frequency on the grid. Too high or too low frequency damages the turbines in the base load power plants, and they will shut down to avoid damage if the frequency goes too far out of…

This has almost nothing to do with how electricity is priced.

Electricity isn't priced only one way.

In the Japanese market in summer during the day the spot price nose dives to almost nothing because of an oversupply of solar. Yet most installed solar is operating under the FIT system where all generation is guaranteed to be bought by the regional generation company for a fixed price, regardless of what the spot price is. This worked to incentivise bringing lots of solar online, but its paid for by adding a levy as a line item to everyone's electricity bill. To lower the financial burden the government is ending the FIT system and transitioning to FIP where from memory solar operators still make similar money as they did under FIT but it's sold on the spot market and then the government pays a premium on top.

The TSOs have to manage the supply-demand balance and there's things like the balancing market to help with this. However the government is also changing the regulations to put more of the burden of managing the supply-demand onto the solar operators themselves and not lump it all on the TSOs. Lots of people invested in solar under the FIT system because operation and expected revenue was straightforward. Now with shifting to FIP it's less straightforward. Additionally when the burden finally falls to the solar operators to proactively manage the supply-demand balance, there aren't good systems they can readily leverage to do so, and the average Joe with solar panels on their roof isn't necessarily going to want to be submitting 30 minute generation plans to their regional TSO, hence they'll eventually have to wind up going through aggregators and such becoming part of a virtual power plant where you may have things occur like negawatt transactions to incentivising reducing demand to help manage the supply-demand balance etc.

PPAs are also an increasingly popular option for purchasing/selling solar power. They're usually fixed price contracts, but depending on how it's setup money either changes hands directly between the generator and consumer (via a retailer) or sometimes the generator sells it all on the spot market and then settlement of the difference between the contract price occurs afterwards between the parties. Even with fixed price contacts the revenue isn't completely guaranteed because the TSO might need to issue curtailment orders to the generator in order to manage supply-demand balance when there is oversupply or grid congestion.

It's not all sold on the spot market.

Anyway, my comment was less about how it's priced more about hidden operational complexity of renewables non-industry folks aren't aware of. In particular turbines have inertia and so if you stop generating power they will still run for a while, and this helps keep the frequency on the grid stable, but solar doesn't have inertia since it isn't turbine based, so large swings in generation can have an instantaneous impact on grid frequency, which can be destabilizing, unless you do stuff with batteries and inverters to produce pseudo-inertia. TSOs need to manage fluctuations with frequency containment reserve, frequency restoration reserve, and replacement reserve. These costs all wind up as part of the wheeling charges which affect the bills in the end.

There's also things like capacity payments/capacity market which impacts solar operators, but I don't know specifics on how that stuff works.

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's their citizens who sacrifice to make solar power cheap enough. No. Manufacturing labor cost in China is not cheap. In fact since 2012 or so, it is more expensive than in most of Asia. Companies who want cheap labor look elsewhere. https://www.economist.com/business/2023/02/20/global-firms-a... (Archive link: https://archive.fo/tdhXJ ) China is also the only major economy where wages have increased at the same…

Solar panel construction is very easy to automate, I don’t think labor is a big driver of cost.

Labor is always a big driver of cost, because you need to plan, build, maintain and operate those factories with humans even if fully automated, and a lot of the indirect costs is going to scale with the price of labor, too (local legal representation, transport/logistics, ...)

Re: Solarpunk is happening in Africa

#540
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My takeaway from observing “tech in developing world” projects is that the key gap is usually maintenance . That is, continuous small investment to prevent things from breaking in the first place. To be fair, that’s not exactly a solved problem in developed countries either! Sometimes development projects just throw solutions at rural communities then move onto their next project, leaving no legacy of training or con…

I knew a charity group many years ago that targeted this issue. They noticed that aid charities would give modern motorcycles to rural medical workers that rapidly ended up in a non-working state. So they gathered older motorbikes, more suitable and more repairable in the destination country, and spent time training the end users in maintenance and upkeep, and ongoing support.

Not an uncommon problem with charities working with foreign nations. They fail to capture the local populations because they think of these problems in a vacuum.

Person lacks reliable transportation -> give them some -> problem solved

There's another example - a charity provides treated mosquito nets for free to millions of families in Africa. Great!

People lack reliable mosquito protection -> give them treated nets -> problem solved!

But in reality it went like this:

People lack reliable mosquito protection -> give them treated nets -> many of these families are starving -> fine mesh nets are great at catching small fish -> all their food is now infected with insecticide, mosquitos continue to access the family as well

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