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Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

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Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#11

Post by microtonal »

neilv wrote: post #3

I had to look up what "Gnome Mutter" is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutter_(software) > Mutter is a window manager initially designed and implemented for the X Window System, but then evolved to be a display server ("Wayland compositor"). It became the default window manager in GNOME 3, Gnome alienated some developers around the time of GTK 3, and there have sometimes been regressions, and some opinionated unconve…

fuel the healthy competition is a really positive spin on even more fragmentation. It's sad how Linux desktop eats itself.

GNOME is a perpetrator as well. I usually check the GNOME release notes (since I use GNOME on my NixOS laptop) and on a semi-regular basis there is a note that says: replaced app X by a completely new rewrite Y. And there is still no support for basic things like marking up/annotating a screenshot, even though the basic image viewer has been rewritten N times (anyone remember Electric Eyes?).

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#12

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

thisonetimeonly wrote: post #8
tokai wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-Gnome people really need to get over it. We get it, just don't use their software.

It’s just the way, innit? People love to (rightly) bump their chest and say Linux is great for how customisable and open it is, but then go bananas the moment one software decides to do something different. “Openness, customisation and freedom of choice are great—unless you are offering a software that doesn’t behave exactly like we want it to, then it should not exist as option for anyone, ever.”

Yeah, no. Let me fix that:

Openness, customisation and freedom of choice are great—unless you are offering a software that absolutely refuses to allow customization and freedom of choice, and actively attempts to impose its limitations on the rest of the ecosystem[0], in which case you will get pushback.

[0] My favorite example is https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685#no1

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#13

Post by ragnese »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #2

A decade of a their trademark hard line "you're holding it wrong" ethos will likely already have driven away what people might object to this sort of change.

Probably yes. And, good. It's free software. I still use GNOME Shell, and the minute the make a change that I don't want to deal with, I'll change to something else. Easy as that.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#14

Post by phantasmish »

HeinzStuckeIt wrote: post #7
neilv wrote: post #3

I had to look up what "Gnome Mutter" is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutter_(software) > Mutter is a window manager initially designed and implemented for the X Window System, but then evolved to be a display server ("Wayland compositor"). It became the default window manager in GNOME 3, Gnome alienated some developers around the time of GTK 3, and there have sometimes been regressions, and some opinionated unconve…

How many X11 holdouts are still around, really? I'm a curmudgeonly old man fond of old tech, but I have still had a Wayland-only setup since early 2020; once Sway was there as a good tiling window manager, and Emacs got its Wayland-ready pure-gtk branch, there was no need to look back. I of course see people here and there on forums express discontent, but I don't think that demographic is big enough to drive both si…

SteamDeck's desktop mode was X11, last I checked.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#15

Post by ragnese »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #12
thisonetimeonly wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just the way, innit? People love to (rightly) bump their chest and say Linux is great for how customisable and open it is, but then go bananas the moment one software decides to do something different. “Openness, customisation and freedom of choice are great—unless you are offering a software that doesn’t behave exactly like we want it to, then it should not exist as option for anyone, ever.”

Yeah, no. Let me fix that: Openness, customisation and freedom of choice are great—unless you are offering a software that absolutely refuses to allow customization and freedom of choice, and actively attempts to impose its limitations on the rest of the ecosystem[0], in which case you will get pushback. [0] My favorite example is https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685#no1

There are multiple angles. As the stewards of GTK, they should, IMO, try to keep it flexible and customizable to whatever extent is manageable and reasonable. This post is about Mutter, which is a window manager, which should have very little to do with the app "ecosystem". They can, and should, do whatever the hell they want with Mutter, GNOME Shell, Nautilus/Files, etc.

Even in the link you posted, they're talking about GNOME, not GTK.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#17

Post by zahlman »

HeinzStuckeIt wrote: post #7
neilv wrote: post #3

I had to look up what "Gnome Mutter" is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutter_(software) > Mutter is a window manager initially designed and implemented for the X Window System, but then evolved to be a display server ("Wayland compositor"). It became the default window manager in GNOME 3, Gnome alienated some developers around the time of GTK 3, and there have sometimes been regressions, and some opinionated unconve…

How many X11 holdouts are still around, really? I'm a curmudgeonly old man fond of old tech, but I have still had a Wayland-only setup since early 2020; once Sway was there as a good tiling window manager, and Emacs got its Wayland-ready pure-gtk branch, there was no need to look back. I of course see people here and there on forums express discontent, but I don't think that demographic is big enough to drive both si…

If you are on for example Mint, X11 is chosen for you and will probably be for a few years to come. There is an experimental Cinnamon Wayland session, though.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#18

Post by happymellon »

znpy wrote: post #10
neilv wrote: post #3

I had to look up what "Gnome Mutter" is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutter_(software) > Mutter is a window manager initially designed and implemented for the X Window System, but then evolved to be a display server ("Wayland compositor"). It became the default window manager in GNOME 3, Gnome alienated some developers around the time of GTK 3, and there have sometimes been regressions, and some opinionated unconve…

> Maybe this even harder push by Gnome on Wayland will drive even more effort into the alternative software, and continue to fuel the healthy competition that (for better or worst) the Linux desktop is stuck with. Competition in this space has been everything except healthy. Wayland people have been essentially sabotaging X11 development. Example: people wanting to keep X11 alive have been literally banned from the f…

Probably a better reference.

https://www.theregister.com/2025/07/12/the_price_of_software...

> fascistoid appoach that wayland people had all along the way

Ironic to promote a far right dev, and demonizing folks who are sick of his shit.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#19

Post by pseudalopex »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #9
HeinzStuckeIt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many X11 holdouts are still around, really? I'm a curmudgeonly old man fond of old tech, but I have still had a Wayland-only setup since early 2020; once Sway was there as a good tiling window manager, and Emacs got its Wayland-ready pure-gtk branch, there was no need to look back. I of course see people here and there on forums express discontent, but I don't think that demographic is big enough to drive both si…

The trick is: If you use any sort of a11y tools, it's really hard to move to wayland. Things are improving, but it's slow going.

Or most remote desktop tools.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#20

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

phantasmish wrote: post #14
HeinzStuckeIt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many X11 holdouts are still around, really? I'm a curmudgeonly old man fond of old tech, but I have still had a Wayland-only setup since early 2020; once Sway was there as a good tiling window manager, and Emacs got its Wayland-ready pure-gtk branch, there was no need to look back. I of course see people here and there on forums express discontent, but I don't think that demographic is big enough to drive both si…

SteamDeck's desktop mode was X11, last I checked.

Also their gamescope compositor makes the weird but reasonable-in-context choice of being a wayland (micro)compositor... that by default only uses Xwayland and doesn't expose a wayland socket to applications. AIUI this is because, at least to date, X was better for gaming in some way.
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