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Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

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Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#61

Post by matwood »

magicalhippo wrote: post #10

Just had our minisplit develop a leak after 7 years. The shop recommended replacing it, as just the refrigerant is half the price of a new one if most has to be replaced, due to environmental taxes. Basically a repair is guaranteed to be at least 50% of new price of NOK 23k ($2.3k) installed and can quickly approach 80+% if the guy has to spend time on it. That made me wonder how on earth they make money on selling t…

For a non-obvious leak it's pretty normal to recommend a new system at that age. The reason is that a tech's time is expensive, and finding a leak can take a lot of time. Then once it's found, if the leak is in the exchange you're looking at a fairly large replacement part cost.

At least in the US, refrigerant costs have been high because of a shortage, not taxes.

https://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/us-ac-companies-move-...

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#62

Post by FloorEgg »

Gigachad wrote: post #28

This was pretty interesting. But the part I didn't get is where its stated that things got more expensive, but we consume more of them because we got richer. Is this not just inflation? If everyone got paid more and everything got more expensive, are we not essentially level?

It seems maybe you mixed up non-fungible value-bottlenecking human services with "everything".

Many things can get cheaper, some things get more expensive, and median person gets more wealthy and buys more of both.

In reality, yes, inflation plays a role in this, but the article is pointing to other patterns layered on top of it.

On average, over long term, despite inflation, people can afford way more good and services.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#63

Post by numpad0 »

magicalhippo wrote: post #10

Just had our minisplit develop a leak after 7 years. The shop recommended replacing it, as just the refrigerant is half the price of a new one if most has to be replaced, due to environmental taxes. Basically a repair is guaranteed to be at least 50% of new price of NOK 23k ($2.3k) installed and can quickly approach 80+% if the guy has to spend time on it. That made me wonder how on earth they make money on selling t…

> ... on selling these things.

Or making those things.

I think it could make sense if that $2.3k mostly only accounted for Western labor involved rather than representing entirety of "real" costs. Like - just entirely making up - 1k to ship it from middle of the Pacific to nearby ports to you, 0.5k from the port to location of installation, another 0.5k to install, 0.3k for documents preparations and extra wood screws, 2.3k total. And $25k worth of man-hours in CNY to manufacture, which effect is isolated and contained within their own economic bubble.

I can't just believe in the "them subsidization" theory anymore, international prices just don't seem like compensating for anything. It feels like paying for energy costs of delivery systems rather than the product. It just doesn't make sense.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#64

Post by locknitpicker »

chemotaxis wrote: post #7

That's a lot of economic theorizing, but to me, it doesn't seem to be substantiated all that well. You can just as well argue that labor is getting more expensive in the West because of two non-market pressures. First, we have a multitude of government programs that seek to eliminate extreme poverty, so there are fewer people who are desperate to take any job for any money. Second, you have consumer protection polici…

> (...) a multitude of government programs that seek to eliminate extreme poverty, (...) consumer protection policies that make it genuinely expensive (...)

I don't think this opinion holds a rational basis.

Extreme poverty being a factor in low job demand is an argument for coercing people into performing certain tasks even though they are not economically viable just because it benefits you personally. This is not a valid argument, neither indentured servitude or slavery. Isn't the US supposed to be a free market economy where free Enterprise reigned?

Complaining about regulation, including waste disposal, is also dumbfounding. Being required to dispose of air filters in a landfill is not the reason why you can't afford a repair. This opinion is also comical as HVAC also covers air quality because otherwise you can be cool in a room but literally sick.

This sort of opinion sounds completely irrational and unsubstantiated, and extremely ideological.

The main factors driving repair cost are things like device longevity, unit price, speed and ease of repair, parts availability, etc. That's mainly it. When you call someone to your house to repair something, the price tag covers that person's cost of living for the fraction of the time it takes them to deal with your problems. On top of that, you need to pay whatever parts they need to buy to get your things back to work. That's where the money goes.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#65

Post by ryao »

> If you live in the United States today, and you accidentally knock a hole in your wall, it’s probably cheaper to buy a flatscreen TV and stick it in front of the hole, compared to hiring a handyman to fix your drywall.

While this is true, the costs are inflated because you need to repaint the entire room to get the original look, rather than only pay the cost of merely replacing the drywall. Of course, some handymen are much more expensive than others, so it is possible that is more expensive too.

If you are one of the few using wallpaper and have extra wallpaper for just such emergencies, using the extra wallpaper to paper over it should be cheap.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#66

Post by kelnos »

Gigachad wrote: post #36
korhojoa wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the deal is about people saying heat pumps are expensive. They used to be a little pricier than AC units, but it's just a 4-way valve in addition to one. I just looked it up, and I can buy a heat pump for 200-400 euros (depending on desired output), installation is ~400 euros. Why are you paying 20-30x for something identical? This sounds like a price difference created by government behavior, like…

Is this some country specific terminology? At least in Australia I've never seen an air conditioner that didn't use heat pump technology. Aside from evaporative cooling that is.

Air conditioners (the things that can make a room colder, but not hotter), are indeed heat pumps, but in the US when we refer to a "heat pump" we mean the same technology, but with a reversing valve so that it can make rooms both colder and hotter.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#67

Post by locknitpicker »

margalabargala wrote: post #42
stein1946 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can just as well argue that labor is getting more expensive in the West because of two non-market pressures. First, we have a multitude of government programs that seek to eliminate extreme poverty, so there are fewer people who are desperate to take any job for any money. Second, you have consumer protection policies that make it genuinely expensive to, say, be a HVAC repairman. Educational requirements, permi…

I didn't see anything in their comment where they added "and therefore we ought return to rampant extreme poverty", did I miss it? They don't appear to be suggesting anything you say they are, just describing the effects of what exist. It can be true that consumer protection laws raise the price floor for certain goods and services without "and therefore consumer protection laws are bad".

> I didn't see anything in their comment where they added "and therefore we ought return to rampant extreme poverty", did I miss it?

The US is already experiencing rampant extreme poverty. There are people in the US holding multiple jobs and still can't afford to eat, let alone healthcare.

Again, this argument that things are expensive because the poor can't work and regulation somehow is suffocating businesses is purely ideological and not supported by facts.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#68

Post by kelnos »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #26

> HVAC wage This is mostly down to people being afraid of anything even remotely trades-like. Learn to do some basic home repair, it will save you thousands. > This graph can mean different things to different people: it can mean “what’s regulated versus what isn’t” to some, “where technology makes a difference” Cars are pretty heavily regulated... What I see is what is necessary to live and what isn't. Elastic vs in…

> This is mostly down to people being afraid of anything even remotely trades-like. Learn to do some basic home repair, it will save you thousands.

Installing a new HVAC system is not "basic home repair".

Yes, there are HVAC-related repairs that qualify as basic, but we're also talking about the big things.

And while yes, many homeowners could learn how to install a new heat pump, run refrigerant lines, make sure every connection is torqued properly, etc., most would not want to or have the time to do so, and that's fine, normal, and expected.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#69

Post by ryandrake »

Gigachad wrote: post #33
bradlys wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even that. It's that rich people are the only thing the trades are catering to now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_uSJVCYds Example of a solar install that was under $20k via DIY - maybe took this guy 1-2 weeks of full-time work. But he was quoted $90k and he did most of it himself - only hiring a backhoe operator to move some dirt around. We're at the point where the trades are only going to cater to ri…

What I'm seeing is trades workers basically don't want small one off jobs because you waste so much time on the overheads unrelated to the actual work. If someone has a hole in the wall they need patched, you're spending time answering the phone, estimating the price, driving there, billing the customer, etc. And a lot of jobs are very one off and difficult to evaluate the price. Why even bother when you could just w…

Most of the tradesmen around me won't even get out of bed for less than $1,000. They really don't want piddly little jobs from us peasants. I've started DIY'ing almost everything I need to do around the house because if you call an electrician, he'll quote you a $2,000 "go away" price because he's busy doing $50K new construction jobs.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#70

Post by magicalhippo »

tass wrote: post #47
magicalhippo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 23k seems like a lot, That is because it's wrong. Sorry, just woke up. I'm in Norway, and it's 23k NOK, or $2300. The shop said filling my system back up with refrigerant if it was empty would be around $1.3k, and based on what I've heard I don't think that's off by much.

Oh I don’t know how I missed that unless you made an edit, but I also just woke up :) This price makes more sense. 23k didn’t sound too far off what an American installer would try charge for a new system in a high cost of living area, so this wasn’t too unbelievable.

Yeah edited it, should have clarified.

> 23k didn’t sound too far off what an American installer would try charge for a new system in a high cost of living area

I've heard these insane prices. I think 2.3k is pricey enough, you can get cheaper units here but SO wants the pretty indoor unit so pretty indoor unit she gets.

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