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Free software scares normal people

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Re: Free software scares normal people

#301

Post by bigglywiggler »

rkunal wrote: post #278
graybeardhacker wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always tell clients (or users): "If you bring your car to the mechanic because it's making a noise and tell them to replace the belt, they will replace the belt and you car will still make the noise. Ask them to fix the noise." In other words, if you need expert help, trust the expert. Ask for what you need, not how to do it.

It is a common misconception that the "expert" knows the best. Expert can be a trainee, or may be motivated to make more for its organisation or have yet to encounter your problem. On the other hand, if you are using your car for a decade and feel it needs a new belt - then get a new belt. Worst case scenario- you will lose some money but learn a bit more about an item you use everyday. Experts don't have your instin…

I am a qualified mechanic. I no longer work in the field but I did for many years. Typically, when people 'trust their instincts as a user' they are fantastically wrong. Off by a mile. They have little to no idea how a car works besides youtube videos and forum posts which are full of inaccuracies or outright nonsense and they don't want to pay for diagnosis.

So when they would come in asking for a specific part to be replaced with no context I used to tell them that we wouldn't do that until we did a diagnosis. This is because if we did do as they asked and, like in most cases, it turned out that they were wrong they would then become indignant and ask why we didn't do diagnosis for free to tell them that they were wrong.

Diagnosis takes time and, therefore, costs money. If the user was capable of it then they would also be capable enough to carry out the repair. If they're capable of carrying out the diagnosis and the repair then they wouldn't be coming to me. This has proved to be true over many years for everyone from kids with their first car to accountants and even electrical engineers working on complex systems for large corporations as their occupation. That last one is particularly surprising considering that an engineer should know the bounds of their knowledge and understand how maintenance, diagnosis and repair work on a conceptual level.

Don't trust your instincts in areas where you have no understanding. Either learn and gain the understanding or accept that paying an expert is part of owning something that requires maintenance and repair.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#302

Post by jaredhallen »

duxup wrote: post #121
squeedles wrote: post #10

Good article, but the reasoning is wrong. It isn't easy to make a simple interface in the same way that Pascal apologized for writing a long letter because he didn't have time to write a shorter one. Implementing the UI for one exact use case is not much trouble, but figuring out what that use case is difficult. And defending that use case from the line of people who want "that + this little extra thing", or the "I j…

It always amazes me how even just regular every day users will come to me with something like this: Overly simplified example: "Can you make this button do X?" where the existing button in so many ways is only distantly connected to X. And then they get stuck on the idea that THAT button has to be where the thing happens, and they stick with it even if you explain that the usual function of that button is Y. I simpli…

I think what you're driving at can be more generalized as users bringing solutions when it would be more productive for them to bring problems. This is something I focus on pretty seriously in IT. The tricky part is to get the message across without coming across as unhelpful, arrogant, or obstructive. It often helps to ask them to describe what they're trying to achieve, or what they need. But however you approach the discussion, it must come across as a sincere desire to help.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#304

Post by tsoukase »

The open source UIs initially seem alien, complicated or obscure related to similar to closed-source Windows' ones. The reason is OSS projects are built by developers primarily FOR developers and not for regular users. The design principle of "Don't surprise me" and other artistic and ergonomic ones are not met. Examples are Gimp and other content editors like Handbrake, Firefox vs chrome in mobile only, even IDEs.

BUT with time and a variable effort a regular user can get accustomed to the new philosophy and be successful. Either by persistant use, by using different OSS apps in series or by touching the command line. Happy user of Firefox, Libre office, Avidemux, Virt-manager (sic)

Re: Free software scares normal people

#305

Post by johnnyanmac »

tsoukase wrote: post #304

The open source UIs initially seem alien, complicated or obscure related to similar to closed-source Windows' ones. The reason is OSS projects are built by developers primarily FOR developers and not for regular users. The design principle of "Don't surprise me" and other artistic and ergonomic ones are not met. Examples are Gimp and other content editors like Handbrake, Firefox vs chrome in mobile only, even IDEs. B…

Is Firefox v chrome even relevant these days? I struggle to even think of shortcuts that aren't identical among the two browsers. Let alone UX and features.

I think the other big reason is availability of talent. FOSS is made by devs who usually are already well off and have time to contribute. You wont find as many artists nor graphic designers with the same privilege . so if there's bo designers on a project you get the bare basics.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#306

Post by hn_acc1 »

LtWorf wrote: post #290
DrewADesign wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overall, the development world does not intuitively understand the difficulty of creating good interfaces (for people that aren’t developers.) In dev work, the complexity is obvious, and that makes it easy for outsiders to understand— they look at the code we’re writing and say “wow you can read that?!” I think that can give developers a mistaken impression that other peoples work is far less complex than it is. With…

> Overall, the development world does not intuitively understand the difficulty of creating good interfaces Nor can the design world, for that matter. They think that making slightly darker gray text on gray background using a tiny font and leaving loads of empty space is peak design. Meanwhile my father cannot use most websites because of this.

As I age, this x1000. Even simple slack app on my windows laptop - clicking in the overview scroll bar is NOT "move down a page". It seems to be "the longer you click, the further it moves" or something equally disgusting. Usually, I dock my laptop and use an external mouse with wheel, and it's easy to do what I want. With a touchpad? Forget it.. I'm clicking 20x to get it to move to the top - IF I can hit the 5-pixel-wide scrollbar. There's no easy way to increase scrollbar size anymore either..

It's like dark patterns are the ONLY pattern these days.. WTF did we go wrong?

Re: Free software scares normal people

#307

Post by makeitdouble »

DrewADesign wrote: post #29
squeedles wrote: post #10

Good article, but the reasoning is wrong. It isn't easy to make a simple interface in the same way that Pascal apologized for writing a long letter because he didn't have time to write a shorter one. Implementing the UI for one exact use case is not much trouble, but figuring out what that use case is difficult. And defending that use case from the line of people who want "that + this little extra thing", or the "I j…

Overall, the development world does not intuitively understand the difficulty of creating good interfaces (for people that aren’t developers.) In dev work, the complexity is obvious, and that makes it easy for outsiders to understand— they look at the code we’re writing and say “wow you can read that?!” I think that can give developers a mistaken impression that other peoples work is far less complex than it is. With…

> creating good interfaces (for people that aren’t developers.)

This is the part where people get excited about AI. I personally think they're dead wrong on the process, but strongly empathize with that end goal.

Giving people the power to make the interfaces they need is the most enduring solution to this issue. We had attempts like HyperCard or Delphi, or Access forms. We still get Excel forms, Google forms etc.

Having tools to incrementaly try stuff without having to ask the IT department is IMHO the best way forward, and we could look at those as prototypes for more robust applications to create from there.

Now, if we could find a way to aggregate these ad hoc apps in an OSS way...

Re: Free software scares normal people

#308

Post by theandrewbailey »

singhrac wrote: post #120
gspencley wrote: post #98

A lot of this type of stuff boils down to what you're used to. My wife is not particularly tech savvy. She is a Linux user, however. When we started a new business, we needed certain applications that only run on Windows and since she would be at the brick and mortar location full time, I figured we could multi-purpose a new laptop for her and have her switch to Windows. She hated it and begged for us to get a dedica…

One summer in middle school our family computer failed. We bought a new motherboard from Microcenter but it didn’t come with a Windows license, so I proposed we just try Ubuntu for a while. My mom had no trouble adjusting to it. It was all just computer to her in some ways.

Sometime around 2012, Windows XP started having issues on my parent's PC, so I installed Xubuntu on it (my preferred distro at the time). I told them that "it works like Windows", showed them how to check email, browse the web, play solitare, and shut down. Even the random HP printer + scanner they had worked great! I went back home 2 states away, and expected a call from them to "put it back to what it was", but it never happened. (The closest was Mom wondering why solitare (the gnome-games version) was different, then guided her on how to change the game type to klondike.)

If "it [Xubuntu] works like Windows" offended you, I'd like to point out that normies don't care about how operating system kernels are designed. You're part of the problem this simplified Handbrake UI tries to solve. Normies care about things like a start menu, and that the X in the corner closes programs. The interface is paramount for non-technical users.

I currently work in the refurb division of an e-waste recycling company.[0] Most everyone else there installs Ubuntu on laptops (we don't have the license to sell things with Windows), and I started to initially, but an error always appeared on boot. Consider unpacking it and turning it on for the first time, and an error immediately appears: would you wonder if what you just bought is already broken? I eventually settled on Linux Mint with the OEM install option.

[0] https://www.ebay.com/str/evolutionecycling

Re: Free software scares normal people

#309

Post by Dylan16807 »

bugsliker wrote: post #286
Dylan16807 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average person doesn't even read error messages . They know how to ignore things and hit the button that goes forward just fine. If they choose not to try the program, that's different. They don't lack the skill. (A child might lack this skill but a child is curious enough to push on so it works out anyway.)

I don’t really understand what you’re arguing anymore. Is the average person afraid of the unknown or are they capable of ignoring things? You seem comfortable with the idea that a child not having this learned skill. I don’t know why you don’t extend that empathy towards the inexperienced in general.

My interpretation was that you're implying a big fraction of adults don't have this skill, that a typical non-technical person likely doesn't have it. I'm saying nearly every adult does have it. So I have empathy for those that truly lack it, the 1% of adults, but that empathy doesn't extend to the rest that aren't suffering that issue.

Re: Free software scares normal people

#310

Post by tmp147963 »

I'd love applications that would let me choose how advance I want the UI to be. Kinda like Windows Calculator. A toggle between basic, advance, and some common use cases.

For example, I'd love Gimp to have a Basic mode that would hide everything except the basic tools like Crop and Brush. Like basic mspaint.

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