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Keep Android Open

keepandroidopen.org

821–830 of 907 posts

Re: Keep Android Open

#821
It's disturbing enough that many gadgets these days only stay usable as long as their cloud backend stays working.

But many more gadgets, while not cloud dependent, depend on an app. Think about any number of remote-controlled toys where the remote control is a phone app. Think, for example, about very expensive bicycle derailer systems that can only be configured via app.

Already I've found very neat objects whose app has long faded from the app stores, but for Android at least, you can usually find a .apk and even ancient ones often still load and run. A recent example was that for an ancient parrot ar.drone that I got at a garage sale.

Since these gadgets and their apps precede this attestation thing, newer Android devices will no longer be able to run them. Then what? Keep an old Android device around and hope that it stays working as long as your expensive gadget?

Re: Keep Android Open

#822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secure boot and OEM bootloader unlock should be able to work with images so you can lock a phone after the upgrade again. I managed to get a US refubished Pixel 2 somehow with a fuselocked bootloader here in Ireland. I bought it second hand but I've no idea how it got that way. But I'm suck on the Pixel image and I wanted to use it for ROM testing etc.

This is outside of my area of expertise. I know there are i.e. banking apps that will disable themselves if you're running some unofficial 3rd party Android derivative like LineageOS. Are you saying those apps would work again if you perform some kind of secure boot locking procedure?

It does vary. TWRP/Magisk can enable apps, but its case by case.

Re: Keep Android Open

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secure boot and OEM bootloader unlock should be able to work with images so you can lock a phone after the upgrade again. I managed to get a US refubished Pixel 2 somehow with a fuselocked bootloader here in Ireland. I bought it second hand but I've no idea how it got that way. But I'm suck on the Pixel image and I wanted to use it for ROM testing etc.

You can relock the bootloader but it still fails the SafetyNet check since it's not running an "official" OS signed with the manufacturer's keys.

yup it will, but this is where some legislation might help to get certified 3rd party ROM images that will pass. Its a tricky topic though.

Re: Keep Android Open

#824
post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but how do you build a consumer software business on top of a licensing scheme that legally allows anyone to share their copy of the software with anyone else, and allows other businesses to resell your software at half the price?

I charge for copies of free software I wrote, an AGPLv3+ desktop application, and earn about $2k MRR from it. Most people don't care about your choice of license, they just want software that conveniently solves their problem(s). If they want to share it, that's fine. They're giving it to people who wouldn't have bought it anyway. If those grantees ever want an official copy, with updates and support, they come back…

Hey, I recognize your username, I bought RCU this year because I wanted to encrypt my reMarkable without losing data. I could have used the cloud or whatever, but I found your software and chose it because it is local-only and FOSS. Also reasonably priced.

Thanks for your work! I have enjoyed RCU and now use it regularly for backups, file transfer, etc. I'm glad to hear that it seems to be sustainable.

Re: Keep Android Open

#825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might get you root but not a bootloader unlock.

There are privilege escalation CVEs in bootloader code too. I remember unlocking some very early locked bootloaders this way in the early days of android.

So much rarer now. Its getting more and more locked down unfortunately.

Re: Keep Android Open

#826
post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix? Telegram's push 2FA? Any mobile wallet application? The vast majority of dating apps? Any of the app-only social networks? Basically all keyless entry applications?

I use Netflix web version on my linux desktop all the time.

We were talking about mobile browsers. Obviously I am aware that people watch Netflix on their laptops.

Re: Keep Android Open

#827
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This situation would have been avoided if we, as community of engineers, had insisted on full and uncompromised open source (Stallmanist or GPL way) right from the start instead of going the ESR way of half-hearted open source where it's technically open but corporates get to have a free lunch and make abuses. Like most coders, I also prefer the permissive MIT/Apache/BSD licensing for most software projects but incid…

I have a "weakly held strong opinion" on this subject. I think open source has been a disaster for the state of software for normal people. On the one hand exploited developers making peanuts or nothing for their hard work. On the other hand exploited users losing control of their devices and social networks. The era when people paid an affordable fee for software they could use however they wanted was much better. B…

Disclaimer: I really like Open source.

I think without open source something similar might have happened to a lot of software, but instead of becoming Open, they'd become gratis (free/zero cost), or almost so. The heart of the matter is that software has near-0 cost of distribution, so making 1 trillion is basically the same cost (to the developer) as making 1 unit. So since developers have free economies of scale, they are highly incentivized to lower the price to capture most of the market, I think. Software also requires relatively little maintenance, it doesn't rot[1] -- good software basically lasts forever with some minor up-keeping. Add in competition, and the tendency is for cost to go to near 0, at least for relatively popular software. But then there are two problems:

(1) If the company goes under, the software is lost, or rather it could be reverse engineered with huge difficulty and some information loss about the actual code.

(2) The incentives are still not well aligned with users. The makers are incentivized to rely on advertisements, get (and sell) user data, make their software addictive, and more.

On (1), FOSS software guarantees the source will be available and can be ported to new systems, basically becoming a common good. On (2), the incentives are very well aligned for FOSS, development can become a community effort, and in the rare case a developer would turn to collecting and selling user data or dark patterns, the software can be forked for example. In particular Open source funded by grants, donations and community/voluntary work is very aligned with public interest.

I get the downside that it could be unfair that developers aren't being paid as much, but I believe it wouldn't be much of a difference in income (for those kinds of software), and we can and should as a community donate to open source efforts (and since it's clearly in the public benefit I think governments, companies and all sorts of organizations would be wise to do so).

Finally, you're basically still free to create and sell closed source software, you just have to compete with community and volunteer efforts. I think it's well within your right (and it might make sense in some cases, say niche software). But I think it's worth considering carefully wether it's best for the product, for you and for the community to have it closed or open.

(also, indeed you can sell FOSS, but to be honest I don't know of many success stories in this regard (anyone share some examples?); I know arduino which is open software/hardware was very successful selling their genuine boards/having a pay request on download that you can dismiss. On Linux package managers make this difficult, although Flathub recently added donation buttons!).

[1] There are some issues popularly called "software rot", but it's basically some relatively minor (compared to the rot of many physical goods) compatibility issues when interacting systems change.

Re: Keep Android Open

#828
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Re: Keep Android Open

#829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In corpo-world. Everyone is using Windows. If they are using Linux it would be through a VM or WSL. I guarantee none of those people are using Linux at home. And I guarantee that you're wrong, because I work a corporate job where I have to put up with Windows and am 99% Linux at home. (The other 1% is *BSD and illumos.)

You are the minority but you can believe whatever you like. The vast majority of developers I have worked with (and I've contracted a lot of places) know next to next to nothing about Linux. They can barely use a terminal (Powershell, CMD, Bash/Zsh) and often can't do anything outside of the IDE. If they do use Linux. It be on a Raspberry PI that gets stuck in a drawer after a few months. To those that keep voting me…

Yeah, I'm probably a minority. That doesn't mean that nobody uses linux, just that it's less common.

Re: Keep Android Open

#830
post #797
post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it forces you to keep running with more and more speed just to stay where you are, I wouldn't call it as "benefits of society and civilization". A lot of what we call as progress is a forced transformation of basic needs for the gains of business and politics not people. Even the healthcare, which everyone thinks as a "benefit" of the progress, only resulted in having lopsided demographic pyramid with countries fu…

Countries aren't full of old people because of healthcare, they're full of old people because birthrates plummeted after one of the largest generations ever was born in the post-war period.

Turned out that if you gave people choice they'd rather not have 7 kids! Surprise surprise.
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