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Keep Android Open

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Re: Keep Android Open

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

relative of mine has t1d and they use their phone app to monitor and give insulin, also alarm them when they are low..trusting outside the reliability of apple and google for this type of stuff i imagine would be difficult.

There are OSS solutions for glucose monitors and even insulin pumps, and they exist precisely because commercial vendors tend to give at best suboptimal quality even when it comes to medical devices. Sure, most pay attention to not accidentally kill you, but beyond that, their incentives go in opposite direction to your incentives.

It's important to have computing freedoms so that people who actually care end-to-end, and don't have financial incentives directed against patients' well-being, are able to build on top of products on the market, fix the enshittification, and improve functionality.

(We also need that to close the loop. It's a common story that meh products of today, which improve on bad products of yesterday, are just commercializing the fixes developed by people fed up with said bad products.)

Re: Keep Android Open

#712

I'm going to say something that probably will get me down votes: Why do we have to beg Google to keep Android open? Seriously. So many open source projects have risen out of real and concrete needs and successfully made their way into our every day lives. A new platform needs to rise that breaks out completely from Google. I've given PostmarketOS a go (with a PinePhone) and while today I can't say it isn't a daily dr…

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

> Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing.

But they don't demand the same control over laptops and desktops. Only phones. Why is that? Granted I can't deposit a check with my laptop but I can do any other banking I wish to do.

So to me it's more that they see the chance to gain this control where they didn't see it before. Phone providers are only too happy to get on that bandwagon because they get to deploy all kinds of surveillance capitalism in the name of security ("hey the banks want it!").

Granted these freedoms are slowly leaching away from laptops and desktop too with stuff like TPM, so I don't know. I've about had it though.

Re: Keep Android Open

#713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

I would add that end-users are OK with this because they expect their devices to not be compromised when installing an app. The majority of users are OK with trusted computing and are OK with trusting Google, Apple, Microsoft because it’s easier to trust one of those companies than having to trust each app developer. In the end, you have to trust someone and it’s better if that someone can be held accountable by some…

I agree. I also think though that it's a different kind of trust. They trust Google, Apple, and Microsoft because they _think_ they'll be held accountable by some legal system, but judging by the wrist slaps meted out for their massive security lapses (especially you M$) or their constant breakage of their own privacy policies to spy on people it actually seems worse than trusting individual app developers.

Re: Keep Android Open

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

> Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. But they don't demand the same control over laptops and desktops. Only phones. Why is that? Granted I can't deposit a check with my laptop but I can do any other banking I wish to do. So to me it's more that they see the chance to gain this control where they didn't see it bef…

> But they don't demand the same control over laptops and desktops. Only phones. Why is that?

Oh, but they do. PCs (and Macbooks) are products of an earlier era, and the solutions of control evolved along; it looks chaotic, but that's because it's where the R&D happened over the past decades, which ultimately produced a cleaner - and more easily identifiable - mobile control ecosystem. But it's all there, if you look closely. To name few major groups:

- Many generations of DRM plugins for games, then for streaming media

- Trusted computing hardware

- Intel Management Engine and other firmware backdoors routinely inserted into hardware

- Endpoint security software, deployed widely on corporate-owned machines

Mobile solutions are just version 2.0, built on top of all that R&D.

> Granted I can't deposit a check with my laptop but I can do any other banking I wish to do.

This is the insidious part: for many banks, this is only tolerated because they force you to use their proprietary app on a trusted mobile device as a second factor! At this point, it doesn't really matter how well-controlled your main browsing platform is, because you have to use your phone anyway, and there the control happens. And, "for your convenience", the mobile app isn't just a physical security token, but lets you do banking too, which allows them to gradually deprecate the web experience.

Re: Keep Android Open

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that an open platform can't succeed, but rather people are accustomed to closed platforms, so more resources went into perfecting them. The aforementioned players pushing for control aren't invincible. Whether we can move to open platforms depends on the choices people make. I can choose to use a bank that allows me to access all of their online banking features via the browser. I can choose to work for a co…

> I can choose to use a bank that allows me to access all of their online banking features via the browser. Lucky you. There are fewer and fewer such banks out there. The trend is to route login and consequential interactions on the web through 2FA on a phone - and not TOTP, but push notifications sent to the bank's app, that only runs on devices that pass remote attestation checks. > I can choose to work for a compa…

> Lucky you. There are fewer and fewer such banks out there. The trend is to route login and consequential interactions on the web through 2FA on a phone - and not TOTP, but push notifications sent to the bank's app, that only runs on devices that pass remote attestation checks.

There will be fewer and fewer such banks out there if people choose to not use them, among other short-sighted decisions which produce such trends. You need to give the banks a reason to care.

> Again, lucky you. Most people don't really get many options for employment at any given moment, and the issue of corporate phones is usually at the bottom of the list of criteria when one is looking for a job. I.e. not a real choice for most people.

The first part is not true. You have plenty of options, they're just not equally good. It depends on what you're willing to give up in exchange. And you can push for change within your org.

> Modern government systems around the world tend to require some sort of identification that usually gets tied to your smartphone, either directly or via your bank.

They can have some sort of identification, but it shouldn't involve surveillance spyware on my device. If a government needs that then they're part of the problem. People form governments, you can push back against those people. Don't bend the knee to tyrants.

> Torrents aside, that's not the case. Entertainment isn't fungible. Disney can release all Star Wars media DRM-free for everyone to download, and it means exactly zero to someone who wants to watch Star Trek, but Paramount/CBS decided to go all Ferengi on the franchise. Can't substitute one for the other. This is why the market supports so many streaming services these days - they exploit this very fact.

Entertainment can be fungible if you decide that it is. I can live without watching a DRM-protected show. Watch something else. Do something else. They exploit the people which has decided for themselves that they must be loyal to certain franchises.

> Open Source software stopped mattering once the world embraced Software as a Service model. Source code on Github means nothing if the code is actually executed on servers you don't control and have no visibility into.

You can choose to not use SaaS. Host your own stuff. Give your money to ISPs that allow you to host stuff. Pressure your government to regulate ISPs. And there's plenty of offline software that doesn't need Internet connectivity. Not everything needs to be artificially-scarce cloud-slop, unless we want it to be.

> Open Source Software succeeded only because software development has near-zero natural barrier to entry, so there was a large supply of bored high-schoolers and students, hobbyists, academics and other do-gooders with enough time and will to just build stuff and give it away for free. This isn't true for hardware.

FOSS succeeded because there's a base production rate for software, software (as it gets further from the metal) doesn't need monetary incentives. When I said open-source hardware, I meant the IP. Obviously making the physical thing isn't free. But the IP doesn't need to be as scarce as it is now. Schematics will be harder than firmware will be harder than software to open-source because they're close to the hardware (which is naturally scarce), but it's possible, and will be done, and we don't need to invoke movie magic.

> No, it does not. On consumer side, the market is driven by supply, not demand. I.e. you only get to choose from what the vendors decide to make available to you, and they know perfectly well you have to choose something, so your voice doesn't matter. If it did, we wouldn't be having this whole thread in the first place.

Consumers and suppliers don't exist in perfectly separated vacuums. You can influence suppliers. There are plenty of side channels.

Here's what separates chance and choice:

If we assume that our decisions don't matter, then we're definitely screwed. If we assume that our decisions matter, then we're only probably screwed. It's up to each and every one of us to make the latter assumption.

Re: Keep Android Open

#716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

And yet I can open my bank's website on my Linux desktop, using Firefox. The "players" are not all-powerful, and defeatism serves no one.

Yes, but what do you use as a second factor to authenticate and confirm money transfers?

In large parts of the world, the answer is usually "my uprooted, remotely attested smartphone". Increasingly, it's becoming the only supported method. When that's the case, what you use to load the banking UI doesn't matter anymore - the mobile device is the only actual requirement.

Re: Keep Android Open

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: bank/financial apps, enterprise apps, government apps and copyrighted media (music, video, games, books, ...). Those are the players that demand excessive control over end-user devices, and thus the ultimate driver behind the problem we're discussing. It's not that a new mobile platform couldn't possibly succeed. It's an open platform that cannot, because aforementioned players don't want it, and without them…

The web is an open platform, and most, if not all, aforementioned applications are happily working on the web.

Web being an open platform doesn't matter in any way, when the code runs on proprietary servers.

Re: Keep Android Open

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can choose to use a bank that allows me to access all of their online banking features via the browser. Lucky you. There are fewer and fewer such banks out there. The trend is to route login and consequential interactions on the web through 2FA on a phone - and not TOTP, but push notifications sent to the bank's app, that only runs on devices that pass remote attestation checks. > I can choose to work for a compa…

> Lucky you. There are fewer and fewer such banks out there. The trend is to route login and consequential interactions on the web through 2FA on a phone - and not TOTP, but push notifications sent to the bank's app, that only runs on devices that pass remote attestation checks. There will be fewer and fewer such banks out there if people choose to not use them, among other short-sighted decisions which produce such…

Counterpoint: vast majority is not making those choices, and if you insist on defying the mainstream, you gradually become separated from human society.

This isn't solvable through individual choice. It's a coordination problem - and coordination problems are what underlies every actually hard problem that humanity is struggling with. War, poverty, authoritarian regimes, corporate overreach, environmental destruction, climate change - all could be solvable though choices like you describe, but in practice are not, because humans can't coordinate at scale.

Relevant search term: "meditations on Moloch".

Re: Keep Android Open

#719
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I can just take about any Linux distro, install it to about any computer and have an extremely nice device to work, play games, and handle almost any daily task with. I call that a huge success.

Yet, still 1/4th of the time my ThinkPad with Linux wakes with a Thunderbolt display connected it dies with a kernel panic deep in the code that handles DDC (no matter what kernel version). And the latest gen finger print scanner only works between 10-50% of the time depending on the day, humidity, etc., no matter hof often you re-enroll a fingerprint, enroll a fingerprint multiple times, etc. And the battery drains…

> Yet, still 1/4th of the time my ThinkPad with Linux wakes with a Thunderbolt display connected it dies with a kernel panic deep in the code that handles DDC (no matter what kernel version).

This doesn't happen on my ThinkPad but does on my MacBook. If anyone else faces these kernel panics on their Mac, you have to set your monitor to a hard 120hz rather than a variable rate on the macOS display settings. KDE handles the variable rate just fine on the ThinkPad for me.

Re: Keep Android Open

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lucky you. There are fewer and fewer such banks out there. The trend is to route login and consequential interactions on the web through 2FA on a phone - and not TOTP, but push notifications sent to the bank's app, that only runs on devices that pass remote attestation checks. There will be fewer and fewer such banks out there if people choose to not use them, among other short-sighted decisions which produce such…

Counterpoint: vast majority is not making those choices, and if you insist on defying the mainstream, you gradually become separated from human society. This isn't solvable through individual choice. It's a coordination problem - and coordination problems are what underlies every actually hard problem that humanity is struggling with. War, poverty, authoritarian regimes, corporate overreach, environmental destruction…

The direction of society is the aggregate of our individual choices. I'm no expert on coordination, but I think we ought to start with ourselves and not spread misery like "your voice doesn't matter" or "humans can't coordinate at scale".
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