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PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

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Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#831

Post by rayiner »

koolba wrote: post #822
drekk wrote: post #819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

43% of all white students at Harvard are legacy, athletes, directly related to faculty, or have family that donated to the university. That number falls to 16% or lower for black, latino, and asian students. 75% of that aforementioned group of white students would not have been admitted had it been based on merit. 70 percent of all legacy applicants are white, compared with 40 percent of all applicants who do not fal…

> Why does the average applicant need to be penalized when their grandparents legally could not attend these institutions? I think it's pretty obvious why people have such reactions to DEI when it's literally just "legacies for people who legally were barred from participating". Averages are meaningless, only individuals matter. Suggesting that preference for legacies be removed is a fine topic on its own, but it's o…

> Averages are meaningless, only individuals matter.

Exactly. We shouldn’t treat similarly situated people differently because of group averages. That’s the definition of racism.

It’s also irrational in practice. If you want to compare whose grandparents had it harder, Indians and Chinese are clearly entitled to the most affirmative action.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#832

Post by Thorrez »

tremon wrote: post #722
Thorrez wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out Google's diversity report[1], pages 63-110. It contains a lot of data. E.g. for US tech hiring, in 2015 2.2% of hires were Black+, in 2024, it was 10.0%. For global tech hiring, in 2015 19.6% of hires were women, in 2024, it was 30.2%. Disclosure: I work at Google. [1] https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/819bcce604bf5ff7...

Only looking at hiring % doesn't mean anything if we don't know the composition of the hiring pool. For example, page 64 shows that Google's APAC offices have 90.7% Asian workers, up from 90.4% a year earlier -- at the expense of all other ethnicities. Is Google doing a bad job there, or is this an accurate reflection of the available workforce?

throwawaykf10 said:

>On this topic HN almost always devolves into anecdotes. There's gotta be data on this. What does the data say? How much have DEI efforts shifted the demographics in these companies and/or the professional prospects of minorities?

>My guess: no change at all, because it's all performative.

I provided data. Not anecdotes. The data shows how the demographics of Google have shifted. The data shows how the professional prospects of minorities have shifted when it comes to Google jobs. The data does not show "no change at all".

A change from 90.4% to 90.7% percentage points I doubt is statistically significant. Phrasing it "at the expense" sounds like it's some terrible decline.

The conversation so far I believe has been about DEI in the US. Why focus on APAC, instead of the the US?

>Only looking at hiring % doesn't mean anything if we don't know the composition of the hiring pool.

What does that mean? Are you saying that if the fraction of CS grads that are Black+ also increased from 2.2% to 10.0%, then Google's DEI efforts did nothing? That conclusion doesn't hold. Google has a lot of DEI efforts, including ones to increase the number of Black+ people who choose to major in CS.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#833

Post by akimbostrawman »

SabrinaJewson wrote: post #808
akimbostrawman wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renaming your ideological movement because most people don't like what it stands for won't change peoples opinion.

What about DEI makes it an “ideological” movement as opposed to other movements who are presumably not ideological? And I’m not sure what “most people”, is supposed to mean; you do realize you’re talking about 49% – that is, under half, so definitively not “most” – of the US of A’s population?[0] [0]: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/poll-american...

Maybe the demonizing everybody who does not agree with it or the agenda driven financial investment by mega corporations with ESG scores invented by the WEF folks

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#834

Post by akimbostrawman »

gcanyon wrote: post #801
akimbostrawman wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only not benefitting you but actively putting you at a disadvantage because of the way you where born. Why do you think that? Because it makes you feel good or because there is an actual measurable benefit? And no you don't need to have a specific skin color or sexual orientation to be considered diverse/different. If you think "all white dudes are/think the same" maybe change white to black and say that in…

What makes you think I think "all white dudes are/think the same"? Did I say anything to suggest that? The difference, I think, is that I'm not blind to the advantages I receive every day for being a white male. In the words of Louis CK, "If you're a white male and don't admit that it is thoroughly awesome, you're an asshole."

>advantages I receive every day for being a white male

Really like what? There are many concrete examples of how "white dudes" are statistically are disadvantaged.

Higher rate to being victim of a violent crime, suicide, homelessness, harsher sentences, dying at work, dying younger, dying in a war, white guilt

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#835

Post by davorak »

hitekker wrote: post #613
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how DEI should work, and probably does in some, or maybe many, cases. In other cases, it boiled down to "this quarter, we only have headcount for 'diverse' candidates", metrics for DEI hiring that turn into goals, and e-mails stating "only accept new L3 candidates that are from historically underrepresented groups". I expect that I'll get accused of making this up, which is why the latter is an exact quote sh…

YC's Jessica Livingston and the founder of TripleByte observed the similar racial and sex quotas from the inside: https://x.com/jesslivingston/status/1884652626467303560 IBM's CEO infamously championed DEI-as-quota which led to wave of lawsuits that IBM was forced to settle. The memory holing on this topic is concerning.

> YC's Jessica Livingston and the founder of TripleByte

I listened to video and I did not see anywhere where Jessica made an observation along those lines.

I did not hear quotas talked about explicitly either, though companies wanting more diverse candidates from TripleByte, which might have been caused by quotes in the company but Harj does not indicate any companies came out and said that.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#836

Post by judahmeek »

array_key_first wrote: post #708
judahmeek wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You telling certain friends, but not others, based on characteristics named in the 1964 civil rights act, as part of your job requirements, would likely be illegal. In your free time without occupational incentive? Sure.

No it would not be illegal. What happens if all my friends happen to be black? I can never tell anyone about a job opportunity ever again? Have we taken a step back and actually thought about the things we're saying?

When is it ever a job responsibility to tell your friends about job opportunities & no one else?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#837

Post by rayiner »

gcanyon wrote: post #827
rayiner wrote: post #816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My contention is that the evidence of discrimination against (non-asian) minorities in universities is non-existent. I don’t have an opinion to what’s causing admissions rates to be different than population averages. If someone proves that it’s caused by discrimination against minorities, then we have laws to address that and I’d support enforcing those laws.

If we have the fact of lower admission rates, it is incumbent on us as a society that cares about all our members to figure out what's going on. You've refused to express an opinion. Of course, others have proposed rationales, and the solution proposed is unacceptable to you. So what are we to do with that?

Society faces many problems—individuals don’t need to have an opinion as to the causes of all of them. I’m not an education expert, so I can’t tell you what causes lower admissions rates. If you think the reason is universities are discriminating, then it’s incumbent on you to build a case for that. I’m sure I’d support enforcing the laws against discriminatory conduct that you can show is happening. But I’m not going to support indicting people without evidence of wrongdoing.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#838

Post by Dylan16807 »

rayiner wrote: post #829
Dylan16807 wrote: post #820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned a couple comments up, something like this: https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/A-Discri... is way more impactful then some CEO choices. I can't find the Microsoft thing, but apparently among fortune 500 companies only 1.6% of CEOs are black. Even double that would still be an extremely low number. So unless you think some truly cosmic random odds happened here, that 1.6% is evidence of lo…

These studies are misleading, because they try to create race signals by using names that are also class signals: https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-study-suggests-resea... . Also, the study suggests that, even with this flawed methodology, a bulk of industries are in the least discrimination category with only a 3% lower callback rate for “black sounding names.”

Do you have any numbers for trying to correct for that factor?

And the bulk are not at 3%, the bulk are between 5 and 10. 3 was the absolute lowest.

Also you didn't mention the CEO thing, does that mean my numbers were sufficient to address that worry?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#839

Post by endomorphosis »

lutoma wrote: post #437
endomorphosis wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Spamming the same bad-faith argument over and over in this thread on an account you clearly solely created for this purpose does not make it more true.

I’m sorry do you operate a legal business and go to weekly meetings at Stanford law schook
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