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PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

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Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#801

Post by gcanyon »

akimbostrawman wrote: post #709
gcanyon wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a white male, there is zero chance DEI benefits me directly. But I think we all benefit from a diverse society, with female plumbers and electricians, minority software developers, etc. etc.

It's not only not benefitting you but actively putting you at a disadvantage because of the way you where born. Why do you think that? Because it makes you feel good or because there is an actual measurable benefit? And no you don't need to have a specific skin color or sexual orientation to be considered diverse/different. If you think "all white dudes are/think the same" maybe change white to black and say that in…

What makes you think I think "all white dudes are/think the same"? Did I say anything to suggest that?

The difference, I think, is that I'm not blind to the advantages I receive every day for being a white male. In the words of Louis CK, "If you're a white male and don't admit that it is thoroughly awesome, you're an asshole."

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#802

Post by gcanyon »

ModernMech wrote: post #782
gcanyon wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a white male, there is zero chance DEI benefits me directly. But I think we all benefit from a diverse society, with female plumbers and electricians, minority software developers, etc. etc.

Disability accommodations are a cornerstone of DEI. As an able-bodied individual, you may not feel you would benefit from those today; but if you are blessed enough to grow old, one day you will likely be disabled in one way or another. When that day comes, you'll be asking for accommodations to get into public areas, and if those accommodations are not available to you, you will likely find how that limits your abil…

> if you are blessed enough to grow old, one day you will likely be disabled in one way or another

Oh for sure, for sure. It's hard to predict exactly how the secondary effects play out. But I was referring to the primary intended effects, which I think is what the person I was replying to was talking about.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#803

Post by lmm »

chownie wrote: post #727
lmm wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The purpose of DEI is to rectify the discrimination that is already present. But what's the mechanism for how it can ever actually do that? Suppose there was discrimination that meant some women who "should" rightfully have done CS degrees instead did something else (and I don't think anyone's ever actually shown this without making an arbitrary assumption that any difference in the number of applicants must be due…

This only holds if you assume that the hiring process is already fully meritocratic (which it very clearly isn't) and that it isn't missing talented women already (which it very clearly is). If hiring managers are, subconsciously or not, more likely to pick the male candidate when faced with a choice for equally capable male/female candidates then there is inherent discrimination in the process and the DEI approach b…

> This only holds if you assume that the hiring process is already fully meritocratic (which it very clearly isn't) and that it isn't missing talented women already (which it very clearly is).

Citation needed. Certainly neither of those is "clearly".

> If hiring managers are, subconsciously or not, more likely to pick the male candidate when faced with a choice for equally capable male/female candidates then there is inherent discrimination in the process and the DEI approach balances the scale.

And if it's the opposite, as the best available evidence (not that there is any really solid evidence in this space) suggests?

I'm all for ensuring that everyone gets a fair chance that reflects their skills and experience, regardless of personal characteristics. As far as I can see DEI initiatives are working against that.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#804

Post by LexiMax »

qcnguy wrote: post #795
LexiMax wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if you have used them in this thread or not. An account of your age and your disposition should not have access to automated moderation tools, period. Moderation via easily gamified populism is the worst kind of moderation.

Because the leftists flagging and downvoting everything they disagree with in this thread are clearly exemplars of excellent user moderation? Knock it off.

> exemplars of excellent user moderation

This is a contradiction. There's no such thing, only shades of bad, and HN has about the worst possible implementation.

For what it's worth, I didn't flag or downvote you. YC is seemingly fine with your behavior, and I've seen much worse out of people who have been here longer. I'd rather your mask-off rants be out in the open than swept under the rug.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#805

Post by bmelton »

runako wrote: post #730
bmelton wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to use any public spaces (libraries, community centers, parks) then no, you can't. Virtually every state has a prohibition on the use of public spaces that specifically prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex or gender If you wanted to leverage the "private club" exemption per Roberts v Jaycees, then you would be disqualified from using public spaces as well, which -- my wife established a "girls who…

> Virtually every state has a prohibition on the use of public spaces that specifically prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex or gender This ties into a very specific confusion about affinity groups. Specifically, they generally are not exclusionary (in part because it's largely illegal). The only thing preventing boys from participating in a "girls who code" type of event is the boys don't want to go to someth…

I blearily put this reply to the wrong top-level comment earlier, but ...

That very much depends on the group. Years ago, my wife founded two chapters of a national organization who did "girls who code" sorts of things. There was (to her) a surprising amount of infighting about how to handle registrations from males. Leadership felt that men should not be allowed to attend, but there were at least a couple of chapter leads (including my wife) who felt that men should be allowed to attend, but where spots were scarce, they should be prioritized to women.

Disregarding the politics of it, there was definitely not a shortage of men who were discouraged from signing up because they were somehow icked out over the name. I'm sure some men were, and I'm sure others probably deferred on the grounds that they didn't want to take spots away from those for whom the mission was intended -- but because the organization was unwilling to publish official guidance for reasons I won't bother to opine on, my wife was routinely in the position of having to explain her attendance policies to men who had signed up

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#806

Post by MoltenMan »

wredcoll wrote: post #798
MoltenMan wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ack! There is nothing 'overly sensitive' about being annoyed when you see somebody else get an opportunity because of the color of their skin or gender. It's human nature! In fact I suspect the average person in favor of DEI and / or identity politics would still suffer a decent amount of cognitive dissonance if they were passed up because of something like this. Again, it's just human nature! Please try to imagine a…

You just wrote a whole bunch of paragraphs talking about how appearances made you feel things without ever addressing the actual facts. >DEI is that it attempts to address the symptoms instead of the root cause of the problem. I.e. trying to get girls into stem / coding in highschool or college instead of figuring out why they're less interested in it from a much younger age (and if that's even a problem; classic nat…

> You just wrote a whole bunch of paragraphs talking about how appearances made you feel things without ever addressing the actual facts.

Yes, appearances matter! That's why Trump is president right now (a fact, in case it isn't clear, I'm not happy about)! Because the American people were unhappy with the status quo. Whether or not you think DEI is "fair". And when people like you ignore this, you alienate the voting class, which you need on your side!

> Except there are DEI initiatives that look at every level.

No, there are not DEI initiatives for pre kindergarten / very early school. Not that I've heard of at least, and definitely not on a large scale. And I'm not even talking about adding DEI there; I'm simply saying that we should really be asking why the gap between men and women in STEM seems to start so young (and if it really is because of something that hurts girls, remove that. Which would still not be DEI!)

> Being in favor of the status quo is pretty easy, I admit, and hey, if you happen to benefit disproportionately from the status quo, bonus, right?

...what? I am arguing against the current status quo. And it's true, it would be beneficial to me for DEI to be removed / identity politics abolished. I also believe it would be beneficial to everyone (albeit to a lesser extent), but that's beyond the scope of this argument.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#807

Post by henearkr »

charcircuit wrote: post #662
henearkr wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, you cherry-picked around the part where they say no to DEI.

You misread it. It says no to DEI, that violates nondiscrimination laws.

It includes "DEI, that violates nondiscrimination laws" presented as an accepted fact. So that includes a statement that is opinionated and political, not based on facts or rationality, and roughly half the US population at least does not agree with it.

So, besides how dishonest your comment may be, at least all the readers (who somehow missed that unmissable point, but I digress) get the idea.

Edit: the presence of the comma forbids any interpretation as "{follows DEI} AND {violates nondiscrimination laws}", and instead it reads as "{follows DEI} AND {by the way you already know/agree that DEI violates nondiscrimination laws}". Which any project leader that doesn't believe that DEI violates nondiscrimination laws will reject instantaneously.

But I have the sense that you are not discussing in good faith anyway, so...

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#808

Post by SabrinaJewson »

akimbostrawman wrote: post #654
gip wrote: post #242

DEI has become such a contentious term that we should consider retiring it, in my opinion.

Renaming your ideological movement because most people don't like what it stands for won't change peoples opinion.

What about DEI makes it an “ideological” movement as opposed to other movements who are presumably not ideological?

And I’m not sure what “most people”, is supposed to mean; you do realize you’re talking about 49% – that is, under half, so definitively not “most” – of the US of A’s population?[0]

[0]: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/poll-american...

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#810

Post by godelski »

BrenBarn wrote: post #614
godelski wrote: post #252

> The PSF is a relatively small organization, operating with an annual budget of around $5 million per year, with a staff of just 14. This might be the bigger story. How many trillions of dollars depend on Python? Yes, I mean trillion. Those market caps didn't skyrocket on nothing. A lot of ML systems run on Python. A lot of ML systems are first implemented in Python. Even with more complicated backends a Python laye…

Yes, it's crazy. I think a lot of people see it as a question of "how can we give the PSF (or orgs like it) more money" but I see it a bit differently. Basically if something like Python can arise and become so effective and useful in so many ways with so little funding (and even less in earlier stages), it suggests that money isn't really the bottleneck here. What we need are people doing good work with good motives…

That is another great point.

I do see a lot of companies trying to cut corners and make things as cheap as possible but I fundamentally believe that this ends up increasing costs in the long run. Which is a bit weird since I know a lot of business people and most seem to be familiar with Boot Theory[0] and even agree with it. But maybe it is one of those things that is just not realized in practice. Yet I constantly see these sacrifices being made. Profits over product. I don't think that actually leads to more profits. Maybe in the quarter, but not long term. It's a sustainable strategy if you've monopolized the market though...

I also notice that when layoffs come around that the people who decide who to lay off tend to not lay off themselves. Great way to become management heavy... When in reality, if you have a lot of "rockstar programmers" they should be able to mostly manage themselves. You want to keep them from going down too many rabbit holes and help them prioritize, but for the most part experts know what is most important in the system they're working in.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

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