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Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

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Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#101
post #8

It seems like the AIs role was in applying lengthy and complex medicare billing rules - it did not do negotiating and it doesn't seem like the accuracy of its understanding of medicare practices was actually checked. The author reasonably accused the hospital of gouging and the hospital came back with a much lower offer. I'd be interested to hear from a charge coding expert about Claude's analysis here and if it was…

What the author calls criminal is the way hospitals typically bill Medicare and private insurance providers.

If the OPs brother-in-law had had insurance, the hospital would have billed the insurance company the same $195k (albeit with CPT codes in the first place).

The insurance company would have come back and said, "Ok, great, thanks for the bill. We've analyzed it, and you're authorized to received $37k (or whatever the number was) based off our contract/rules."

That number would typically be a bit higher for private insurance (Blue Cross, Blue Shield, United Healthcare, etc), a little lower for Medicare, and even lower for than that for Medicaid.

Then the insurance would have made their calculations relative to the brother-in-law's deductible/coinsurance/etc., made an electronic payment to the hospital, and said, "Ok, you can collect the $X,XXX balance from the patient." ($37k - the Insurers responsability = Patient Responsibility)

Likely by this point in a chronic and fatal disease, the patient would have hit their out-of-pocket maximum previously, so the $37k would have been covered at 100% by the insurance provider.

That's basically the way all medical billing to private and government insurance providers in this country works.

"Put in everything we did and see what we can get paid for by insurance" isn't criminal behavior, it's the way essentially every pay-for-service healthcare organization in the country bills for its services.

I don't say that to either defend the system, or to defend the actions of the hospital in this instance. It certainly feels criminal for the hospital to send an individual an inflated bill they would never expect to pay.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#103
post #8

It seems like the AIs role was in applying lengthy and complex medicare billing rules - it did not do negotiating and it doesn't seem like the accuracy of its understanding of medicare practices was actually checked. The author reasonably accused the hospital of gouging and the hospital came back with a much lower offer. I'd be interested to hear from a charge coding expert about Claude's analysis here and if it was…

Exactly. You can do this with anything where the racket is based around the layman not being able to take in the amount of arcane subject matter info they'd need to argue their case, not just medical. Tons of institutions that specialize in screwing people are built this way because it's pretty hard to "overtly" build an institution to screw people.

Not just arcane subject matter, but numbers so high any sane person panics.

Hospital: "Here's your bill for $1,000,000." (a figure which is 100% fictional) Patient: "Oh shit, I don't have $1,000,000!" Hospital: "Oh, we'll reduce it to $30,000. Aren't we nice!" Patient: "I don't have $30,000 either, but it might not bankrupt me immediately, so I guess that'll do..."

Never mind that the same procedure in most of the EU was either "free" (to consumer at time of care) or a fraction of the cost.

The whole system is fucked.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#104
post #42
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is the prices are all made up anyway. The hospital hallucinates prices, so they don’t blink an eye when an llm does the same.

Yeah, US hospital billing is based on the idea that the patient has insurance and won't really care about what their insurer gets charged. (The wider implications of this are left to the reader.) For the uninsured this sort of thing is actually really common. Had an online friend who had to get emergency treatment and they sent him a bill for $20k. His response was, "lol I'm uninsured and don't give a fuck about my c…

Many years ago, I managed to stab my face with a screwdriver (not my proudest moment), and had to go to the ER. After the stitches, I was asked whether I wanted to pay with insurance. If I did, it was something like $2,000. If I didn't, there was a 75% discount off MSRP. My deductible was like 25%, so it ended up basically being the same out of pocket either way.

The fact that there seems to be a 4x markup means makes me think insurance companies are in bed with these hospitals. If you can mark up prices arbitrarily high, the insurance "discount" is fake.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#105
That such a thing is even possible shows how messed up the system is. Basically they are charging some fantasy amount of money. I would love Medicare for All but if we want to keep doing some kind of free market approach, let’s at least make sure there is a real market where everybody knows the price of things and can make an informed decision. Right now it seems you have to go to a hospital and just hope for the best.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#106
post #13

I've just ignored any medical bill I don't agree with or think was fair ($10k+ worth in the last 10 years). At least in new york state there has been no downside for me. It never went on my credit score and I bought a house a few years ago.

>I've just ignored any medical bill As a not-American, I wonder what are the rules of this "game". Can anyone in the US just ignore their bills and debt and it's all ignored anyway? Because in most European countries, debt is a very serious thing. Even small debt like an unpaid 50 Euro bill can be sold to debt collectors who can seize your property or garnish your wage, pension or bank accounts to pay your debt plus…

Basically the only thing debt collectors can do in the US (if the amount is too small to justify a lawsuit) is harass you with phone calls. I have DND except for contacts on anyway so I dont notice it.

Edit: also credit score of course. Almost anything does affect your score. Except for medical stuff for me for some reason - I have a good credit score.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#107
post #48

We suddenly woke up in the Kafka-esque purgatory of critical American healthcare billing. We’re in our 50s and had been perfectly healthy, then suddenly we got diagnosed with what will be over $500k in treatment over the next 12 months— and multiple millions for the foreseeable future. We have insurance, but many of the required procedures are “out of network” and there’s no way to tell (we have “the best” insurance,…

I am sorry to hear that. A friend of mine who moved from US to Canada moved after his mother had cancer on her 60s. She was retired by then after having a very successful career (C level on some manufacture company).

His mom died poor.

Crazy country.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#109
post #13

I've just ignored any medical bill I don't agree with or think was fair ($10k+ worth in the last 10 years). At least in new york state there has been no downside for me. It never went on my credit score and I bought a house a few years ago.

Hot off the presses: Judge Scraps Rule Eliminating Medical Debt on Credit Reports https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/17/business/medical-debt-cre...

I have been doing this since before the initial law was passed as it happens

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#110
post #8

It seems like the AIs role was in applying lengthy and complex medicare billing rules - it did not do negotiating and it doesn't seem like the accuracy of its understanding of medicare practices was actually checked. The author reasonably accused the hospital of gouging and the hospital came back with a much lower offer. I'd be interested to hear from a charge coding expert about Claude's analysis here and if it was…

> The author reasonably accused the hospital of gouging and the hospital came back with a much lower offer.

This will always happen, especially if you don't have health insurance. I had to have surgery without insurance in the early 2000s, and I was able to knock off a large percentage of the bill (don't remember how much, it's been decades) by literally just writing back to the hospital and asking them to double check and verify the line items I was being charged.

(edit: more stories along similar lines in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45735136)

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