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Poker Tournament for LLMs

pokerbattle.ai

111–120 of 212 posts

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#111
Hi there, I'm also working on LLMs in Texas Hold'em :)

First of all, congrats on your work. Picking a form of presenting LLMs, that playes poker is a hard task, and I like your approach in presenting the Action Log.

I can share some interesting insights from my experiments:

- Findin strategies is more interesting than comparing different models. Strategies can get pretty long and specific. For example, if part of the strategy is: "bluff on the river if you have a weak hand but the opponent has been playing tight all game", most models, given this strategy, would execute it with the same outcome. Models could be compared only using some open-ended strategy like "play aggressively" or "play tight", or even "win the tournament".

- I implemented a tournament game, where players drop out when they run out of chips. This creates a more dynamic environment, where players have to win a tournament, not just a hand. That requires adding the whole table history to the prompt, and it might get quite long, so context management might be a challenge.

- I tested playing LLM against a randomly playing bot (1vs1). `grok-4` was able to come up with the winning strategy against a random bot on the first try (I asked: "You play against a random bot. What is your strategy?"). `gpt-5-high` struggled.

- Public chat between LLMs over the poker table is fun to watch, but it is hard to create a strategy that makes an LLM successfully convince other LLMs to fold. Given their chain of thought, they are more focused on actions rather than what others say. Yet, more experiments are needed. For waker models (looking at you `gpt-5-nano`) it is hard to convince them not to review their hand.

- Playing random hands is expensive. You would have to play thousands of hands to get some statistical significance measures. It's better to put LLMs in predefined situations (like AliceAI has a weak hand, BobAI has a strong hand) and see how they behave.

- 1-on-1 is easier to analyze and work with than multiplayer.

- There is an interesting choice to make when building the context for an LLM: should the previous chains of thought be included in the prompt? I found that including them actually makes LLMs "stick" to the first strategy they came up with, and they are less likely to adapt to the changing situation on the table. On the other hand, not including them makes LLMs "rethink" their strategy every time and is more error-prone. I'm working on an AlphaEvolve-like approach now.

- This will be super interesting to fine-tune an LLM model using an AlphaZero-like approach, where the model plays against itself and improves over time. But this is a complex task.

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#113
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs would have no hope at conceptualizing any of that. Counter argument - generating probabilistic tokens (degree of randomness) is core concept for an LLM.

It's not. The LLM itself only calculates the probabilities of the next token. Assuming no race conditions in the implementation, this is completely deterministic. The popular LLM inference engine llama.cpp is deterministic. It's the job of the sampler to actually select a token using those probabilities. It can introduce pseudo-randomness if configured to, and in most cases it is configured that way, but there's no r…

This is a poor conceptualization of how LLMs work. No implementations of models you’re talking to today are just raw autorrgressive predictors, taking the most likely next token. Most are presented with a variety of potential options and choose from the most likely set. A repeated hand and flop would not be played exactly the same in many cases (but a 27o would have a higher likelihood of being played the same way).

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#114

I have PhD in algorithmic game theory and worked on poker. 1) There are currently no algorithms that can compute deterministic equilibrium strategies [0]. Therefore, mixed (randomized) strategies must be used for professional-level play or stronger. 2) In practice, strong play has been achieved with: i) online search and ii) a mechanism to ensure strategy consistency. Without ii) an adaptive opponent can learn to exp…

Regarding the deterministic approximations for subgames based on LP, is there some reference you’re aware of for the state-of-the-art?

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I’d bet some coin that current CharGPT would provide a genuine pseudo-random number on request. It now has the ability to recognise when answering the prompt requires a standard algorithm instead of ordinary sentence generation. I found this out recently when I asked it to generate some anagrams for me. Then I asked how it did it.

Depends on how you ask it if course. Chatgpt: Output the random generation of a number between 1 and 10, 100 times ..chatgpt would only provide me with a python script and then offered to add scrolling numbers and colourful digits. Tried again in a new session with: Generate a random number between 1 and 10, 100 times. Output only 4, 9, 1, 6, 10, 3, 2, 5, 7, 8, 1, 9, 4, 6, 10, 2, 8, 5, 7, 3, 9, 1, 4, 6, 10, 8, 2, 7,…

{1: 9, 2: 10, 3: 10, 4: 10, 5: 10, 6: 10, 7: 10, 8: 10, 9: 11, 10: 10}

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#116

I have PhD in algorithmic game theory and worked on poker. 1) There are currently no algorithms that can compute deterministic equilibrium strategies [0]. Therefore, mixed (randomized) strategies must be used for professional-level play or stronger. 2) In practice, strong play has been achieved with: i) online search and ii) a mechanism to ensure strategy consistency. Without ii) an adaptive opponent can learn to exp…

>>1) There are currently no algorithms that can compute deterministic equilibrium strategies [0]. Therefore, mixed (randomized) strategies must be used for professional-level play or stronger. It's not that the algorithm is currently not known but it's the nature of the game that deterministic equilibrium strategies don't exist for anything but most trivial games. It's very easy to prove as well (think Rock-Paper-Sci…

> There really isn't anything special about poker in comparison to chess

They are dramatically different. There is no hidden information in chess, there are only two players in chess, the number of moves you can make is far smaller in chess, and there is no randomness in chess. This is why you never hear about EV in chess theory, but it’s central to poker.

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how you ask it if course. Chatgpt: Output the random generation of a number between 1 and 10, 100 times ..chatgpt would only provide me with a python script and then offered to add scrolling numbers and colourful digits. Tried again in a new session with: Generate a random number between 1 and 10, 100 times. Output only 4, 9, 1, 6, 10, 3, 2, 5, 7, 8, 1, 9, 4, 6, 10, 2, 8, 5, 7, 3, 9, 1, 4, 6, 10, 8, 2, 7,…

Yeesh, that's bad. Nothing ever repeats and it looks like it makes sure to use every number in each sequence of 10 before resetting in the next section. Towards the end it starts grouping evens and odds together in big clumps as well. I wonder if it would become a repeating sequence if you carried it out far enough?

optimized to look random in aggregate (mostly)

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#118
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. The LLM itself only calculates the probabilities of the next token. Assuming no race conditions in the implementation, this is completely deterministic. The popular LLM inference engine llama.cpp is deterministic. It's the job of the sampler to actually select a token using those probabilities. It can introduce pseudo-randomness if configured to, and in most cases it is configured that way, but there's no r…

This is a poor conceptualization of how LLMs work. No implementations of models you’re talking to today are just raw autorrgressive predictors, taking the most likely next token. Most are presented with a variety of potential options and choose from the most likely set. A repeated hand and flop would not be played exactly the same in many cases (but a 27o would have a higher likelihood of being played the same way).

>No implementations of models you’re talking to today are just raw autorrgressive predictors, taking the most likely next token.

Set the temperature to zero and that's exactly what you get. The point is the randomness is something applied externally, not a "core concept" for the LLM.

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#119
post #82
post #59

I think a better method of testing current generation of LLMs is to generate programs to play Poker.

(author of the PokerBattle here) Depends on what your goal is, I think. And it's also a thing — https://huskybench.com/

Great job on this btw. I don’t mean to take away anything from your work. I’ve also toyed with AI H2H quite a bit for my personal needs. It’s actually a challenging task because you have to have a good understanding of the models you’re plugging in.

Re: Poker Tournament for LLMs

#120

We (TEN Protocol) did this a few months ago, using blockchain to make the LLMs’ actions publicly visible and TEEs for verifiable randomness in shuffling and other processes. We used a mix of LLMs across five players and ran multiple tournaments over several months. The longest game we observed lasted over 50 hours straight. Screenshot of the gameplay: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpywKpDXMAApYap?format=png&name=... Po…

Why use blockchain here? I don't see how this would make the list of actions any more trustworthy. No one else was involved and no one can disprove anything.

Clearly a Kool-aid enjoyer
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