PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program • Hacker News Board

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#701

Post by gcanyon » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:19 PM UTC

akimbostrawman wrote: post #649

klipt wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If countries conscripted only men for thousands of years, for how many thousands of years is it reasonable to conscript only women to balance the scales?"

If these people where actually sincere and not just hiding behind a ideological smokescreen that only benefits them they would be for this same as with DEI in other men dominated jobs like sewage cleaning, road building or other physically taxing but underpaid jobs. It really makes you think that all the "men and women are the same and sometimes women are even better" always starts at the silicon valley jobs and stop…

I'm a white male, there is zero chance DEI benefits me directly. But I think we all benefit from a diverse society, with female plumbers and electricians, minority software developers, etc. etc.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#702

Post by gcanyon » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:19 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #619

gcanyon wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your mind, if the company had researched their past hiring and found that whites/males had been favored for the previous history of the company, how long would it be reasonable for them to favor minorities and other underrepresented groups to balance the scales?

This isn't a thread about what's reasonable, it's a thread about what's legal.

That means a "what's reasonable" question is disallowed?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#703

Post by rayiner » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:21 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #673

jchw wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linking the term DEI to illegal hiring practices is like linking having a male manager to sexual harassment. Obviously, it is not fair to discredit all DEI initiatives simply because some of them (possibly a small minority of them) have lead to illegal hiring practices, but it is nonetheless an issue that it happens. That's obviously still true even if it seems entirely antithetical to the point of said initiatives…

How much of an issue it really is we can only really postulate, though. Between the Labor Dept and various think-tanks/economic research groups, there should/could be data. I suspect there are a small number of very public MegaCorps doing illegal DEI and that’s enough to illicit the backlash we’re seeing. I know from my own employer, DEI is about outreach during recruiting and a combination of training for all employ…

I would estimate illegal DEI was happening at more than half of top 100 firms. I’m not as familiar with corporations, but I would be checked if it was less than 25% of Fortune 100s. The HR folks all attend the same conferences together. And the big corps set the permission structure for how everyone else acts.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#704

Post by gcanyon » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:21 PM UTC

xdennis wrote: post #577

gcanyon wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your mind, if the company had researched their past hiring and found that whites/males had been favored for the previous history of the company, how long would it be reasonable for them to favor minorities and other underrepresented groups to balance the scales?

If that's the case, I do think favoring non-whites and non-males is perfectly okay. But how do you think people arrive at the conclusion that whites/males have been favored in the past? Do they: 1) inspect their hiring practices and find evidence of discrimination 2) look at the proportion of minorities in the company vs proportion of minorities in the general population and conclude that any disparity is proof of di…

Companies know their own historical data and practices best.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#705

Post by rayiner » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:21 PM UTC

gcanyon wrote: post #698

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose you were abused by your parent. How much would it be reasonable for you to abuse your child, in order to balance the scales?

That's a bad metaphor.

It’s a good metaphor. You can’t undo racial discrimination against someone who is now dead by discriminating against someone else who is now alive.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#706

Post by gcanyon » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:22 PM UTC

3oil3 wrote: post #627

xdennis wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the case, I do think favoring non-whites and non-males is perfectly okay. But how do you think people arrive at the conclusion that whites/males have been favored in the past? Do they: 1) inspect their hiring practices and find evidence of discrimination 2) look at the proportion of minorities in the company vs proportion of minorities in the general population and conclude that any disparity is proof of di…

I think they come to that conclusion with that segregation thing? Besides that, all nonsense. We need the best for the job, the best we can have. Just the best, with no regards to anything else but the abilities to fulfil the job and all around it. Instead of non-sense of choosing someone based on racial, etnic, religous, etc... it goes both way. Instead of that, put more teachers in schools, provide free books/unifo…

> We need the best for the job

I'm curious why you say that, since we've arguably been managing without "the best for the job" for centuries, anytime the best was a woman or a minority.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#707

Post by array_key_first » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:26 PM UTC

zb3 wrote: post #526

array_key_first wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are disadvantaged and some are not. There's no St. Jude's Non-Cancer Cancer Research because that would be fucking stupid. Similarly, there is no "coding for white guys". Well, there is, we just call that the entire industry . Source: I am a white man living in America.

I don't want "coding for white guys", if I could decide, I'd want for example "coding for people who work manual labor jobs living in rural America" (I live in Poland so it's not directly about me). It seems you're also making a false assumption that since "white guys" make the majority of the industry that means all kinds of "white guys" are properly represented there. But I don't see colors or genders like that.

The only people who have the privilege to not see color or gender are those in the majority.

You bet your ass black Americans see color, because they're reminded of it every day. In our policies, communities, and workplaces.

Also: I agree such a program would be great, but it's not an either or type thing. We can, and do, do both.

This crab bucket sort of whiney baby mentality of "daaaad why do THEY get stuff?" is destructive. It's literally anti-solutions.

Making everything worse across the board for everyone might be fair, but it's also shitty and intellectually lazy.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#708

Post by array_key_first » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:28 PM UTC

judahmeek wrote: post #547

array_key_first wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's literally not illegal. Me telling my friends they should apply to some job is not illegal.

You telling certain friends, but not others, based on characteristics named in the 1964 civil rights act, as part of your job requirements, would likely be illegal. In your free time without occupational incentive? Sure.

No it would not be illegal.

What happens if all my friends happen to be black? I can never tell anyone about a job opportunity ever again?

Have we taken a step back and actually thought about the things we're saying?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#709

Post by akimbostrawman » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:37 PM UTC

gcanyon wrote: post #701

akimbostrawman wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If these people where actually sincere and not just hiding behind a ideological smokescreen that only benefits them they would be for this same as with DEI in other men dominated jobs like sewage cleaning, road building or other physically taxing but underpaid jobs. It really makes you think that all the "men and women are the same and sometimes women are even better" always starts at the silicon valley jobs and stop…

I'm a white male, there is zero chance DEI benefits me directly. But I think we all benefit from a diverse society, with female plumbers and electricians, minority software developers, etc. etc.

It's not only not benefitting you but actively putting you at a disadvantage because of the way you where born.

Why do you think that? Because it makes you feel good or because there is an actual measurable benefit? And no you don't need to have a specific skin color or sexual orientation to be considered diverse/different. If you think "all white dudes are/think the same" maybe change white to black and say that in front of a mirror.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#710

Post by dangus » Tue, Oct 28, 2025, 12:51 PM UTC

nxor wrote: post #332

dangus wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t been told this, I have witnessed it as a primary source. I watched Trump tell cops that they should rough up suspects. I watched Trump tell the January 6 crowd that they need to fight like hell or they’ll lose this country. I watched Trumpers erect gallows for Mike Pence. I watched Trump tell the Proud Boys to stand back and stand by like they were his personal goon squad. I watched Trump say that second am…

[flagged]

How many conservatives celebrated Nancy Pelosi’s husband getting beaten? I remember Donald Trump Jr. said that a Halloween costume would be funny.

Yes, that’s basically the one notable example. Now the challenge becomes whether you can name two more without looking anything up.

Because I can name January 6 (capitol police officers lost their lives, Trump rioters intended to harm Nancy Pelosi specifically), Nancy Pelosi’s Husband as mentioned above, Charlottesville (counter-protestor run over by a car intentionally), the two Democratic Minnesota lawmakers who were injured recently, the pizzagate shooter, pulse nightclub (bonus: perpetrated by an ISIS sympathizer, a right-wing extremist terrorist group)

People don’t wonder why you shy away from the trans movement, we know it’s got nothing to do with left wing violence and more to do with creating a scapegoat class that is rare enough (<1% of the population) so that most people don’t know any of them. Gay men didn’t work as a scapegoat class because just about everyone eventually knew a gay man and figured out that they are normal, nice people.