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AI can code, but it can't build software

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Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#131

Post by shalmanese »

simonw wrote: post #4

This is a good headline. LLMs are remarkably good at writing code. Writing code isn't the same thing as delivering working software. A human expert needs to identify the need for software, decide what the software should do, figure out what's feasible to deliver, build the first version (AI can help a bunch here), evaluate what they've built, show it to users, talk to them about whether it's fit for purpose, iterate…

It’s worthwhile reading the original Fred Brooks “No Silver Bullets” paper where they explicitly cover LLMs under their “Hopes for the Silver” AI/Expert Systems/Automatic programming section and explain why it is still not a silver bullet.

https://worrydream.com/refs/Brooks_1986_-_No_Silver_Bullet.p...

Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#132

Post by pjmlp »

latentsea wrote: post #96
prmph wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs are remarkably good at writing code. Just this past weekend, I've designed and written code (in Typescript) that I don't think LLMs can even come close to writing in years. I have a subscription to a frontier LLM, but lately I find myself using like 25% of the time. At a certain level the software architecture problems I'm solving, drawing upon decades of understanding about maintainable, performant, and verif…

I think C# is really going to shine in the LLM coding era. You can write Roslyn Analyzers to fail the build on arbitrary conditions after inspecting the AST. LLMs are great at helping you write these too. If you get a solid architecture well defined you can then use these as guardrails to constrain development to only happen in the manner you intend. You can then get LLMs to implement features and guarantee the code…

As someone whose C# is one of the main work ecosystems, I highly doubt it.

What I am seeing it that LLMs will push current programming languages down the stack, like now you're enjoying C# => MSIL => Machine code.

On my line of work I already can imagine the other side of the tunnel, more low-code/no-code tooling, orchestration agents, and much (much) less manually writing C#, Java and TypeScript.

Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#133

Post by pjmlp »

torginus wrote: post #128
latentsea wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think C# is really going to shine in the LLM coding era. You can write Roslyn Analyzers to fail the build on arbitrary conditions after inspecting the AST. LLMs are great at helping you write these too. If you get a solid architecture well defined you can then use these as guardrails to constrain development to only happen in the manner you intend. You can then get LLMs to implement features and guarantee the code…

I do quite a bit of coding in C#, and have a lot of experience, and personally I haven't found LLMs to be that great a help at writing C#. First, LLMs are great at learning new tech stacks, but good ol' ASP.NET has been pretty much stable since forever. Second, I think Rider/Resharper is the greatest piece of autocomplete tech ever made, seriously nothing ever comes, close, which means I'd rather do a refactor using…

Why I never bothered writing one is the scaffolding, and the dumb idea to write code with WriteLines instead of a nice experience like T4 templates.

Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#134

Post by skydhash »

lan321 wrote: post #129
FromTheFirstIn wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not 90% of the work people do. It’s solved a task, not a problem.

It's what takes time though. When you need to make a wrapper for some API for example LLMs are incredible. You give it a template, the payload format and the possible methods and it just spits out a 500-1000 line class in 15 seconds. Do it for 20 classes, that's work for a week 'done' in 30 mins. Realistically 2 days since you still have to fix and test a lot but still..

Or write a lisp macro in one hour and be done. Or install an opengenerator and be done in 10 minutes, 9 of which is configuring the generator.

Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#135

Post by lan321 »

skydhash wrote: post #134
lan321 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's what takes time though. When you need to make a wrapper for some API for example LLMs are incredible. You give it a template, the payload format and the possible methods and it just spits out a 500-1000 line class in 15 seconds. Do it for 20 classes, that's work for a week 'done' in 30 mins. Realistically 2 days since you still have to fix and test a lot but still..

Or write a lisp macro in one hour and be done. Or install an opengenerator and be done in 10 minutes, 9 of which is configuring the generator.

If you can get the specific documentation for it. Sadly many companies don't want you using the API so they just give you a generic payload and the methods and leave you to it. LLMs are good in the sense that they can tell what type StartDate, EndDate is (str MSDate), maybe it also somehow catches on that ActualDuration is an int.. It also manages to guess correctly a lot of the fields in that payload that are not necessary for the particular call/get overridden anyway.

Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#136

Post by skydhash »

simonw wrote: post #68
DougWebb wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just today, I spent an hour documenting a function that performs a set of complex scientific simulations. Defined the function input structure, the outputs, and put a bunch of references in the body to function calls it would use. So that's... math. A very well defined problem, defined very well. Any decent programmer should be able to produce working software from that, and it's great that ChatGPT was able to help…

> Only a tiny subset of software development projects are like that though. Right: the majority of software development is things like "build a REST API for these three database tables" or "build a contact form with these four fields" or "write unit tests for this new function" or "update my YAML CI configuration to run this extra command".

You do know that system programming is a thing? Or that desktop applications are software too?

Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#137

Post by Balinares »

simonw wrote: post #130
belZaah wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, no. Had Claude 4.5 generate a mock implementation of an OpenAPI spec. Trivial interaction, just a post of a json object. And Claude invented new fields to check for and failed to check for required ones. It is helpful in reducing the number of keys I have to press and the amount of documentation-diving I need to do. But saying that’s writing code is like saying StackOverflow is writing code along with autocompl…

What did Claude do when you replied and said "don't add new fields, and make sure you check the required ones"?

"You're absolutely right!"

Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#138

Post by ontouchstart »

jongjong wrote: post #113

Software development is one of these things which often seems really easy from the outside but can be insanely complicated. I had this experience with my co-founder where I was shipping features quickly and he got used to a certain pace of progress. Then we ended up with like 6 different ways to perform a particular process with some differences between them; I had reused as much code as possible; all passing through…

I am in a position of implementation some complex features on top of a shaky foundation with vague requirements. It took a lot of thinking and iteration to figure out what we really wanted, needed and what is possible. And the consequences of the decision we made before, now and in the future.

I am “vibe” coding my way through but the real work is in my head, not in the Cursor IDE with Claude, unit tests, or live debugging. It was me who was learning, not the machine.

Re: AI can code, but it can't build software

#139

Post by NicoJuicy »

solumunus wrote: post #125
simonw wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any automated tests for that project? I'm bringing to suspect a lot of my great experiences with coding agents come from the fact that they can run tests to confirm they haven't broken anything.

The test loop is integral. It’s kind of annoying hearing all this skepticism from people putting in the least effort into optimally using the tool. There is a learning curve. Every month I’ve gotten better results than the last because I’m constantly context building and refining, understanding how, what and when to prompt. It’s like hearing someone say database suck but they haven’t bothered to learn about or use in…

Most of the mentioned issues wouldn't be catched by a test loop unless you have 100% automated tests (unit tests, ...)

Which isn't always plausible ( time ). The AI makes makes different mistakes than humans that are sometimes harder to catch.

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