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PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

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Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#571

Post by jchw »

epistasis wrote: post #484
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how DEI should work, and probably does in some, or maybe many, cases. In other cases, it boiled down to "this quarter, we only have headcount for 'diverse' candidates", metrics for DEI hiring that turn into goals, and e-mails stating "only accept new L3 candidates that are from historically underrepresented groups". I expect that I'll get accused of making this up, which is why the latter is an exact quote sh…

> "this quarter, we only have headcount for 'diverse' candidates", Such a statement from those with hiring authority is highly illegal. Any HR department that would let this message be delivered, either explicitly or implicitly, would open the company to massive lawsuits, such as the one you linked to. It's as bad as allowing sexual harassment. Linking the term DEI to illegal hiring practices is like linking having a…

> Linking the term DEI to illegal hiring practices is like linking having a male manager to sexual harassment.

Obviously, it is not fair to discredit all DEI initiatives simply because some of them (possibly a small minority of them) have lead to illegal hiring practices, but it is nonetheless an issue that it happens. That's obviously still true even if it seems entirely antithetical to the point of said initiatives. How much of an issue it really is we can only really postulate, though.

Personally, I feel the existence of illegal discrimination in service of improving diversity numbers felt like it was treated as an open secret for almost as long as I've been working in tech. I honestly figured it was mostly an urban myth, but it does seem to be a recurring problem that needs addressing.

(I also was somewhat skeptical of police ticket quotas being prevalent, as they are routinely brought up in every day conversation despite being illegal in most jurisdictions I've been, but that also turned out to be largely accurate. Color me surprised.)

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#572

Post by anon291 »

ModernMech wrote: post #488
anon291 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean pls also attracts a TON of rad trad Catholics. It turns out being unable to follow social cues makes you more amenable to following niche fields as well as a bit esoteric in your philosophers and lifestyle. I count myself as one of these as well lol. That being said, this is also problematic. Because if the field is dominated by queer people as you point out, then shouldn't you try to balance it out and add st…

[flagged]

> the Curtis Yarvin / dark enlightenment nexus is big enough and really weird, but also not a topic for HN (not because it's political but because it's stupidly gross and dark).

It has high overlap with the rad trad Catholic wing, believe me. I am a fairly traditional Catholic. I had heard of Yarvin via the Haskell world, and was floored when a parishioner at my parish brought him up. Such a strange crossing of worlds.

I imagine by LGBTQ colleagues must have the same feelings at whatever it is they do on Sundays

Honestly I sometimes think I'm the most normal person in the field, but we all probably think that. I think if my colleagues found out that I only go to a traditional Novus Ordo on Sundays where we use a lot of Latin and not a full-fledged Tridentine Mass, all of them would be angry at me. The LGBTQ crowd for being Catholic and the rad-trad crowd fro not being the right kind lol.

But anyway, I guess what I meant with my last point is: where are the diversity initiatives to get 'normal' people into this field? Everyone agrees it attracts the neuro-diverse? Then doesn't it stand to reason that we ought to encourage the neuro typical? Imagine how great PLs would be if they were actually eloquent haha.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#573

Post by usefulcat »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #369
ModernMech wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best and brightest are not working on these matters.They put out work product with misspellings, misstatements, outright lies, and ChatGPT hallucinations. We have to assume any mistakes are unintentional. Maybe if you’re sued, the mistake gets you off the hook in front of a judge, but you should expect to be hassled no matter what the actual text says.

> We have to assume any mistakes are unintentional. I assume they are intentional. The whole point is to make society less integrity based and more pay to play based. If you’re sufficiently influential, then it’s a mistake that is forgiven. If you aren’t, then you suffer the consequences. It’s how it works in low trust societies. You haggle for everything, from produce to traffic tickets to building permits to crimin…

"For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law"

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#574

Post by xdennis »

th wrote: post #341

It seems like a number of the "DEI is anti-merit discrimination" messages in this thread are overlooking how DEI work usually works. A relevant tweet from 2016 ( https://x.com/jessicamckellar/status/737299461563502595 ): > Hello from your @PyCon Diversity Chair. % PyCon talks by women: (2011: 1%), (2012: 7%), (2013: 15%), (2014/15: 33%), (2016: 40%). #pycon2016 Increased diversity in communities usually comes from ac…

>> (2011: 1%), (2012: 7%), (2013: 15%), (2014/15: 33%), (2016: 40%). #pycon2016

> Increased diversity in communities usually comes from active outreach work. PyCon's talk selection process starts blinded.

There is no world in which 40% of programmers are women. 1% in 2011 is also probably evidence of discrimination. But too few people are willing to admit that if 40% of the speakers are women that represents a drop in the quality of the talks. There just aren't that many women programmers.

If DEI is all about promoting women in the hopes that they'll succeed later, I could get behind that. But often DEI goes to absurd lengths like lowering standards for female firemen or combat soldiers.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#575

Post by punchfunk4lyte »

jimbob45 wrote: post #570
punchfunk4lyte wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you include biological and medical sciences in STEM Biological sciences are STEM of course. But if we're going to extend the definition, why not include all fields that involve technical skills? How about accountants and lawyers? I'm concerned that you only proposed adding medical and nursing students because it's the only additional field that would support your argument. That strikes me as goalpost moving, so…

Erm…accounting is STEM via the M by many modern definitions.

Accounting is not a branch of mathematics.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#576

Post by userbinator »

gatvol wrote: post #455
th wrote: post #341

It seems like a number of the "DEI is anti-merit discrimination" messages in this thread are overlooking how DEI work usually works. A relevant tweet from 2016 ( https://x.com/jessicamckellar/status/737299461563502595 ): > Hello from your @PyCon Diversity Chair. % PyCon talks by women: (2011: 1%), (2012: 7%), (2013: 15%), (2014/15: 33%), (2016: 40%). #pycon2016 Increased diversity in communities usually comes from ac…

"The world doesn't run on merit. " Critical systems do.

And we are seeing a slow collapse as a result of the past decade of identity politics.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#577

Post by xdennis »

gcanyon wrote: post #566
the_sleaze_ wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sat in an all hands where the vice president of HR proudly crowed to the company that they had hired 75% non-whites that quarter.

In your mind, if the company had researched their past hiring and found that whites/males had been favored for the previous history of the company, how long would it be reasonable for them to favor minorities and other underrepresented groups to balance the scales?

If that's the case, I do think favoring non-whites and non-males is perfectly okay.

But how do you think people arrive at the conclusion that whites/males have been favored in the past? Do they:

1) inspect their hiring practices and find evidence of discrimination

2) look at the proportion of minorities in the company vs proportion of minorities in the general population and conclude that any disparity is proof of discrimination

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#578

Post by punchfunk4lyte »

vscode-rest wrote: post #565
punchfunk4lyte wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women were marginalized for millenia. Your mother/grandmother wasn't allowed to open her own bank account until 1974. It will take a long time to correct for that. It's a ratchet from the perspective of our very brief lives. What's the theory of harm here? If we continue educating women they may gain too much social mobility?

[dead]

It was legal and common to discriminate on the basis of sex in banking services until 1974. I actually don't see anything in your link that disputes that. It discusses some earlier milestones about women being able to own certain types of property.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Credit_Opportunity_Act

Even if we quibble about the dates involved, we all understand that historically women have been marginalized, denied property, voting, and other rights, and that this was the status quo for millenia, right? And that that has lasting effects that continue in our society?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#579

Post by seattle_spring »

polski-g wrote: post #507
Dylan16807 wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Encouraging specific people to submit applications is not illegal. Even based on those characteristics.

No that is also illegal. You can not target advertisements based on protected characteristics. > the Justice Department secured a settlement agreement with Meta (formerly Facebook) in February 2025, alleging that Meta’s ad delivery system used machine-learning algorithms relying on Fair Housing Act (FHA)-protected characteristics such as race, national origin, and sex to determine who saw housing ads

You're asserting that the Fair Housing Act applies to tech recruiting?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#580

Post by munificent »

spankalee wrote: post #244
munificent wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 50 years of slow deliberate destruction of the country's trust in institutions and trustworthy media and communications systems and culture.

This, and most people still don't realize it. It goes back to Nixon and Roger Ailes.

Yes, that is 100% the moment I had in mind when I said 50 years.
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