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PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

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Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#241

Post by swiftcoder »

abbycurtis33 wrote: post #218
latexr wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It excludes the many, many more people just don't care about diversity and want the best people in a role regardless of ethnicity or sex or anything else. You often don’t know who the “best” person is for a role until they’re in it. Diversity is good because it allows for different perspectives and catching your own blind spots. Because we don’t understand different backgrounds as well as our own, we can fail to un…

This is mystical thinking. We can establish systems for hiring based on capability.

We've yet to establish such a system, so I'm not holding out much hope (and anyone who has been through a handful of tech interview loops ought to realise this)

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#243

Post by alfalfasprout »

elicash wrote: post #228

On the one hand, the plain text of the language is not against DEI practices in general -- only DEI practices that are "in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws." On the other hand, the federal government has gone after law firms that are not actually in violation of law and forced settlements due to their DEI programs, so you can't actually trust that you won't be hassled. Additionally, that you won't at min…

Reality: the trump admin has shown that the law doesn't matter in the short term. If they think it's "DEI" they'll find a way to yank funding/make an example out of an organization agreeing to this. Even if they're legally in the wrong.

Years later courts may agree no federal anti discrimination laws were violated but it's too late-- the damage has been done.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#244

Post by spankalee »

munificent wrote: post #238
flumpcakes wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that the USA has ever been in such a low standing with the rest of the 'democratic world' in the last 100 years. That's not saying the rest of the world has their stuff together, but it seems that fundamentally un-American ethos is the new nationalist American one that a 1/3 of the country wants. What's happening guys?

About 50 years of slow deliberate destruction of the country's trust in institutions and trustworthy media and communications systems and culture.

This, and most people still don't realize it. It goes back to Nixon and Roger Ailes.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#245

Post by [deleted] »

paulsutter wrote: post #231

If I'm reading that right, it looks like "do not and will not ... operate any programs... in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws" Did your lawyer say otherwise? Interested to understand > We were forced to withdraw our application and turn down the funding, thanks to new language that was added to the agreement requiring us to affirm that we "do not, and will not during the term of this financial assistance…

[deleted]

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#246

Post by nxobject »

flufluflufluffy wrote: post #56
aspir wrote: post #29

This isn't good for the PSF, but if these "poison pill" terms are a pattern that applies to all NSF and (presumably) other government research funding, the entire state of modern scientific research is at risk. Regardless of how you, as an individual, might feel about "DEI," imposing onerous political terms on scientific grants harms everyone in the long term.

They do apply, also for NIH funded research. I work in healthcare research and all the investigators I know have had to go to great lengths to whitewash their grant proposals (you can’t use the word “gender” for example, you must say “difference” instead of “disparity”, etc etc…) It’s absolutely bonkers. However most of the researchers I work with are operating under a “appease the NIH to obtain the grant, but the ju…

> However most of the researchers I work with are operating under a “appease the NIH to obtain the grant, but the just do the research as it was originally intended” approach. It not like the federal government has the ability (or staffing - hah!) to ensure every single awardee is complying with these dystopian requirements.

It's also the same program officers stewarding grant administration after administration, anyway. I don't mean this negatively: they're broad but still subject matter experts, parachuting in new people would be administrative malpractice, and they know just as much what conclusions can and can't be drawn from an analysis plan.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#248

Post by readthenotes1 »

MallocVoidstar wrote: post #232
rileymat2 wrote: post #229

> "do not, and will not during the term of this financial assistance award, operate any programs that advance or promote DEI, or discriminatory equity ideology in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws." How does the legalese parse here? Does "violation of Federal anti-descrimination laws" apply to the whole thing or just the "discriminatory equity ideology" portion of the statement? I ask, because being in vi…

I'd assume it parses however the US government wants it to parse.

Lawyers wouldn't have as much job security if commas didn't matter some of the time

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#249

Post by charcircuit »

dang wrote: post #310

[stub for offtopicness / flamewarness / guideline-breakingness] (this is a rough cut - I know there are other posts left in the thread that arguably belong here, but this time I'm in a bit of a rush) (please, everyone, you can make substantive points thoughtfully but do so within the guardrails at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - avoid the generic-indignant-flamey-snarky-namecalley-hardcore-battley…

[flagged]

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#250

Post by devmor »

abbycurtis33 wrote: post #218
latexr wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It excludes the many, many more people just don't care about diversity and want the best people in a role regardless of ethnicity or sex or anything else. You often don’t know who the “best” person is for a role until they’re in it. Diversity is good because it allows for different perspectives and catching your own blind spots. Because we don’t understand different backgrounds as well as our own, we can fail to un…

This is mystical thinking. We can establish systems for hiring based on capability.

This is also sounds like mystical thinking or some kind of idealism. What safeguard prevents the interference and subversion by the class(es) that already control hiring and cause the problem that society desires to solve?

A meritocracy would of course, benefit everyone, but in creating systems that decide merit, we demonstrably have always created biases that preserve the control of someone involved in creating those systems.

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