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PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

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Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#51

Post by bakugo »

f33d5173 wrote: post #32
bakugo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No you are not reading this correctly Okay, so can you help me interpret that correctly, then? What other conclusion should I draw from this?

"Or" means at least one of multiple alternatives. Alteratives contrast with each other, they differ. Of course, the original author could be repeating the same thing for emphasis, but more likely they are saying two different things. Since the second thing is discrimination, the first thing, "DEI", must necessarily not be discrimination. If they merely wanted you to not discriminate, they could have just said "follow…

They are saying the same thing twice. They repeat themselves specifically because certain groups hold a strong belief that "discrimination" only goes one-way, and have effectively twisted the meaning of the word in their minds.

The explicit mention of DEI is a way of saying "yes, that means ALL kinds of discrimination, including the kinds you may believe are morally correct".

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#52

Post by takluyver »

skrebbel wrote: post #20
bakugo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do not, and will not during the term of this financial assistance award, operate any programs that advance or promote DEI, or discriminatory equity ideology in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws. So basically, the PSF wants to discriminate, the government doesn't want them to do so, and that's a problem? Am I reading this correctly?

Oh come on. The language means that if PSF at any point, maybe years from now, at some conference or wherever maybe somehow supports or hosts a panel about diversity and inclusion, the NSF can force them to pay the money back, even though it's already spent. That's not "wanting to discriminate", it's a free ticket for a rogue government to bully the PSF without a good argument, if it ever sees fit. Even if I were an…

Small correction: the restriction would only affect the PSF for the 2 years the grant runs. That's still more than bad enough when 'diverse' is in the mission statement, and of course they might well apply for other grants, but in principle it can't be applied 'at any point'.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#54

Post by etchalon »

zo1 wrote: post #45
rectang wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-DEI forces, once in power, turn out not to favor putative “diversity of opinion” after all.

[flagged]

pro-skin-diversity is a real weird way to say "against racism."

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#55

Post by faefox »

dang wrote: post #310

[stub for offtopicness / flamewarness / guideline-breakingness] (this is a rough cut - I know there are other posts left in the thread that arguably belong here, but this time I'm in a bit of a rush) (please, everyone, you can make substantive points thoughtfully but do so within the guardrails at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - avoid the generic-indignant-flamey-snarky-namecalley-hardcore-battley…

God, it is so humiliating to be an American these days. :(

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#56

Post by flufluflufluffy »

aspir wrote: post #29

This isn't good for the PSF, but if these "poison pill" terms are a pattern that applies to all NSF and (presumably) other government research funding, the entire state of modern scientific research is at risk. Regardless of how you, as an individual, might feel about "DEI," imposing onerous political terms on scientific grants harms everyone in the long term.

They do apply, also for NIH funded research. I work in healthcare research and all the investigators I know have had to go to great lengths to whitewash their grant proposals (you can’t use the word “gender” for example, you must say “difference” instead of “disparity”, etc etc…)

It’s absolutely bonkers. However most of the researchers I work with are operating under a “appease the NIH to obtain the grant, but the just do the research as it was originally intended” approach. It not like the federal government has the ability (or staffing - hah!) to ensure every single awardee is complying with these dystopian requirements.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#57

Post by [deleted] »

paloblanco wrote: post #5

1.5M is a laughably small number compared to the value that financial institutions extract from just having PyPi available. I know my company, not financial but still large, has containers hitting it every day. How do we get these groups to fork over even just a small amount?

[deleted]

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#58

Post by gdulli »

bakugo wrote: post #19
jLaForest wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you are not reading this correctly, but I suspect that was willful

> No you are not reading this correctly Okay, so can you help me interpret that correctly, then? What other conclusion should I draw from this?

You're free to disagree with anyone here, but playing stupid is only a waste of time. It's not a difficult topic to understand both sides of, regardless of where you come down.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#59

Post by aaronbrethorst »

throwaway091025 wrote: post #36
rectang wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-DEI forces, once in power, turn out not to favor putative “diversity of opinion” after all.

[flagged]

Ahem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#60

Post by [deleted] »

djoldman wrote: post #26

> These terms included affirming the statement that we “do not, and will not during the term of this financial assistance award, operate any programs that advance or promote DEI, or discriminatory equity ideology in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws .” (Emphasis mine) I'm curious if any lawyer folks could weigh in as to whether this language means that the entire sentence requires the mentioned programs t…

[deleted]
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