Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#91

Post by nico » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:32 PM UTC

bicknergseng wrote: post #89

cleverjake wrote: post #8

Wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong. A rebuttal - 1. It Defeats User Expectation This only holds true if A: your user has never seen a mobile site before (and if they are on a phone thats true for about ~0.5s), or B: if your responsive design is poorly implemented. A well designed site will be intuitive. 2 - It Costs More and Takes Longer Let's assume that you have customers that will use your site on a non desk…

I would argue 1 even in the case of users that have seen mobile sites before. Unless the desktop version of the site is completely unusable on a mobile device (which to me points to bad design anyway), I've hated mobile site experiences... the reality is that good mobile site design is the exception rather than the rule. Take eBay for example. The mobile site makes me feel like I'm on WAP and not a device with more p…

I totally agree. It's happened to me many many times that some functionality is missing on the mobile website, and they usually make it impossible to get to it (eg. LinkedIn (and many other sites, including a lot of Google-made things) even though it has an option to go to the desktop site, it will automatically send you to the mobile site on some parts of the site, completely defeating the option of going to the desktop site).

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#92

Post by nico » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:36 PM UTC

cleverjake wrote: post #90

bicknergseng wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue 1 even in the case of users that have seen mobile sites before. Unless the desktop version of the site is completely unusable on a mobile device (which to me points to bad design anyway), I've hated mobile site experiences... the reality is that good mobile site design is the exception rather than the rule. Take eBay for example. The mobile site makes me feel like I'm on WAP and not a device with more p…

That is mostly because eBay is a generally badly designed site. They have one of the most averse-to-change user bases on top of it, so bad decisions stick for a longtime. Check out amazon, or google for wonderful mobile versions of sites. I don't understand your question - are you saying how to full site click throughs work? Most of the time it sets a cookie or a query string that overrides the session 'isMobile' val…

If by google sites you mean google.com and the search results, I would agree, but anything else is usually a disaster, including pretty much all of google apps.

As the article says, the good sites are not the rule, but the exception.

And I think the question in the above comment was simply about wondering how many people, out of all mobile visitors to a website, click on the desktop version link (what percentage of users prefer the desktop version on their mobile devices).

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#93

Post by matznerd » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:46 PM UTC

comex wrote: post #82

matznerd wrote: post #56

Biggest proof that this article is wrong? I'm on my phone reading the blog post and the site doesn't scale for my screen width and it is so annoying to read because I have to keep scrolling left and right to see all of the text. I got so frustrated I didnt even continue reading the article and I left the site. That is what will happen with users when a site doesn't display properly for their device, it's a fact.

Yep, the inline images seem to have disabled my mobile browser's magic reflow thing. On the other hand, that suggests that the article should have narrower rows of text even on desktop (95 characters per line is on the high side of recommended widths for legibility; not unreasonable, but suboptimal), and usually I prefer to read desktop sites since zooming is actually a nice way to navigate around content - better th…

I sometimes do go with the regular version of a website on my phone, but generally I prefer a mobile optimized version, less ads, more readable font size, faster loading, etc. Reading HN on a phone isn't that great, I use http://cheeaun.github.com/hnmobile/#/ and added it to my home page. It makes a world of a difference, except I can't comment from the app.

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#94

Post by matznerd » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:47 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #79

matznerd wrote: post #56

Biggest proof that this article is wrong? I'm on my phone reading the blog post and the site doesn't scale for my screen width and it is so annoying to read because I have to keep scrolling left and right to see all of the text. I got so frustrated I didnt even continue reading the article and I left the site. That is what will happen with users when a site doesn't display properly for their device, it's a fact.

Good point, but of course installing a decent browser is the counter argument. Admittedly my 3 year old Nokia may not be very representative, but its Opera Mini version solves that problem beautifully. My hunch is that it uses heuristics to find the main text area (which nearly every site has), and adjusts the css of that block to $SCREEN_WIDTH. It's been able to do this ever since I started using it in 2009. Now, I'…

If you are building a modern day site, there is just no reason not to make it mobile (phone/tablet) friendly. If you don't want to redesign an existing website, you can just make a separate site that redirects, but which is a less elegant solution.

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#95

Post by mistercow » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:49 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #81

uptown wrote: post #3

"I am a fan of responsive (or alternative) design in certain situations – for example, when dealing with a web application whose desktop design could not practically be contained within a mobile device’s screen." That's the whole idea.

Note that the author is a wordpress blogger. He may be referring to traditional web sites more than the average HN'er, to who the entire web consists of apps (and a few blogs over there in the corner). I believe that his point has a lot more merits when considering web sites than when considering web apps. For example, my favourite online newspapers on my cellphone are those which don't default to some half-arsed mob…

>For example, my favourite online newspapers on my cellphone are those which don't default to some half-arsed mobile layout.

Again, that's an argument against bad responsive design, not responsive design in general.

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#96

Post by lucisferre » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:01 PM UTC

ilyay wrote: post #78

tzumby wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are absolutely right about the complex user interactions. In that case the responsive design could just be informational only (hiding all the complex features that would otherwise be very hard to use on a mobile screen).

This is a terrible suggestion. The age of crippled, stripped down mobile sites is long gone, and smartphone users expect full functionality on their phones. If that functionality can be provided with a responsive design, that's great. If they have to use the regular website and do some zooming and panning, that's a nuisance, but one with which users are familiar. It's certainly better than not having the feature avai…

I'm really tired of everyone talking in absolutes (also the overuse of the word terrible). The right answer is (almost) always "it depends".

It depends how critical that functionality is to the core value the site provides. It depends how appropriate it is to a mobile platform experience.

As a contrived example I'd probably be perfectly happy if I could only browse, read, and maybe vote on HN if the mobile experience of reading was significantly improved. I never want to write a comment from my phone, I hate typing on it. Not a great example since a textarea isn't complex and it's easy to add to a mobile layout, I just want to get across the point that not all interaction is appropriate or important on every platform.

This is why responsive design is hard, because doing it well means far more than just changing the layout, size and visibility of elements. It is a different interaction paradigm and generally will need to be treated as such to maintain a quality experience.

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#97

Post by lucisferre » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:05 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #83

kellishaver wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many people talk about responsive design taking longer and being not worth the effort.... That's true if you start with the desktop and try and work your way backwards to the small screen, which is how a lot of designers look at it, I think. If you take a progressive enhancement approach and work your way up from low-end mobile to full-featured desktop, the process is 100x easier and the end result is, in my exper…

I decided to try converting some of my site designs to bootstrap recently, instead of having one of our developers do it. I haven't actually coded the HTML/CSS design on an entire page in 3 or 4 years now (not counting simple stuff) and this was light years easier than I ever remember. If responsive design is hard, your doing it wrong.

You built one very basic bootstrap site and despite not having done HTML/CSS in 3/4 years you've now got the expertise to tell everyone else they are doing responsive design wrong?

I've built responsive sites in Bootstrap, Foundation and "without a net" and I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what's hard or not about responsive design or even if I'm doing it right or wrong. Look if out-of-the-box Bootstrap is good enough for your needs (and more importantly your user's) awesome. That's called an anecdote.

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#98

Post by TheFuture » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:14 PM UTC

I too am having lots of doubts on responsive design. I've yet to see an example of a significantly popular and non-trivial website implement responsive in a convincing way.

Anyone arguing that "they're just doing a bad responsive design" I think it missing the point. Responsive almost means it has to be bad in some way, because it is a compromise of design between 2 very different devices, not just in screen size but in use cases.

The "right" approach, is the same thing we've been taught for 50 years, separating code from presentation. Building a robust API for your backend data makes the front-end presentation much easier and cheaper, so you can afford to make front-ends tailored for whatever you need.

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#99

Post by lucisferre » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:15 PM UTC

notjustanymike wrote: post #62

lucisferre wrote: post #39

A surprising (or unsurprising perhaps) number of negative responses to this article. I do see why people are so generally defensive of responsive design, I mean it just seems like the right thing to do, it fits with what we wish the commonly accepted wisdom should be. That said, building anything more interactive than a blog layout with it is actually very hard . It is time consuming, there is tedious work to do to t…

I agree, responsive is challenging and always worth a conversation before starting. However, his arguments in this article have no place in any meaningful discussion. He essentially puts the blinders on and claims there's nothing wrong and mobile design is unnecessary.

Agreed it's not a very good article. I'm just bothered by how quickly the cargo cult behind any new technique or technology come out with their pitchforks.

Re: Why Responsive Design Is Not Worth It

#100

Post by joshuasortino » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:17 PM UTC

Interesting read. It's fun to hear the other side of the argument. I don't really agree. Some of these arguments could be applied to all mobile sites, not just responsive sites. If that's the case, we've debated the value of mobile sites for years and mobile sites have clearly won.

1. It Defeats User Expectation — This is not a fault of responsive design, but rather the designer. We need more, skilled responsive designers. A responsive site should act and feel like a regular mobile site.

2. It Costs More and Takes Longer — A mobile site usually requires two separate code bases. With a responsive site, you can maintain both the desktop and mobile experiences from the same place. Also, a good responsive designer is cheaper than a desktop and mobile designer. If it's costing more, you're doing it wrong.

3. Non-Responsive Designs Usually Work — This isn't specifically targeted at responsive design, but rather all mobile websites. By your logic, any mobile site is subpar. While I think you should always include a link to the desktop version (which can be easily achieved by switching out the stylesheet), I don't think desktop sites are superior. A desktop view might be appealing to a small percentage of power users, but the majority of users will appreciate a tailored experience. Just don't hide functionality. You should be able to accomplish the same tasks on mobile that can be achieved on the desktop.

4. There is Often No Load Time Benefit — You're doing it wrong. A good responsive design will have a much lighter weight than a desktop version. There is no reason a responsive site can't function in the same manner and achieve the same performance as a mobile website.

5. It’s a Compromise — Again, this is a power user issue. Always offer the option to view the desktop version.

It is silly to argue against mobile design. Screen real-estate is more valuable on a mobile device and our designs should reflect that. If your argument is responsive design doesn't offer performance benefits, than you probably need to reconsider your workflow and RWD structure.