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Harnessing America's heat pump moment

heatpumped.org

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Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#431

Post by tatersolid »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #260
throw0101a wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mine struggles if it gets below 30, and might as well not exist below 10. They're not great at low temps. What percentage of the (US) population gets temperatures like that? That's generally mostly IECC Zone 7 (though cold snaps in Zone 6) can happen: * https://basc.pnnl.gov/images/iecc-climate-zone-map ASHRAE—an HVAC organization—has data on the coldest and hottest days for areas so that you can design things for…

So gas hash higher reliability and is cheap for the times you need heat the most, whereas heat pumps might not work and are not cheap at the times you need them the most? I’ve had a gas furnace keep me and the water heated multiple times in a cold weather power outage.

How did you run the fans on your gas furnace without electric power?

If you have a backup generator, is it too small for your AC in the summer?

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#432

Post by JeremyPOsborne »

doctorhandshake wrote: post #365
JeremyPOsborne wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we’re trying to bring down cost the this is the issue with so many contractors coming out. The cost of sales is about 10-15% of the installation in the US. So thats $2-3k in California per heat pump Try to get an install for $600 like in Japan when you have to pay $2k to find the customer. Let’s have a lower cost sales process. Review 12 companies online, pick top 3, ask them to come out.

Yeah in case it wasn’t clear - I wasn’t asking a million vendors to price the job, I was asking them to do a manual J so they could price the job. It took 12 to get 4 to do the manual J. The other 8 came on-site and then refused to do the calcs even though I told them before coming out that it was a prerequisite for me to consider their quote. I got a variety of explanations for why they weren’t going to do it, most…

Yep, the cost is in the trip is a big factor but sounds like it was their choice to try to sell you. You did the right thing by asking them do the calcs before they came out. Millions of questions are time consuming and costly but better than someone rushing into and pausing mid project with in-decision.

We (I'm cofounder of Electric Air, HVAC contract) have had people pause on day one of install, and that ends up costing the company $10-20K due to delays. Mostly because there isn't something for the team to do for that day or two while we scramble to line up the next customer.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#433

Post by JeremyPOsborne »

maxerickson wrote: post #350
JeremyPOsborne wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we’re trying to bring down cost the this is the issue with so many contractors coming out. The cost of sales is about 10-15% of the installation in the US. So thats $2-3k in California per heat pump Try to get an install for $600 like in Japan when you have to pay $2k to find the customer. Let’s have a lower cost sales process. Review 12 companies online, pick top 3, ask them to come out.

Wild that you put it on the customer to reduce the sales cost. I can see it being reasonable to explain during the initial contact that you want the standardized estimate, once that happens it's not really on the customer if the contractor goes out to chase the business even if they know they aren't going to do it.

You are right! I was unfair. The customer was clear they wanted ManJ calcs.

It's not the customer's problem to reduce cost. The high cost is the customer's problem through even if they are not to blame. And given I have a first hand experience in the cost stack of HVAC company, I would happy to share how a HVAC contractor thinks.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#434

Post by blahedo »

starkparker wrote: post #99
amarant wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a weird tale to hear. I heat my 2 story 147m2 house in Sweden with a single heat pump and it's downright cosy down to -10C. I have noticed that my office, which is located at the furthest possible place from the heatpump, tends to get a bit chilly when outdoors temperatures fall below -10°c. usually a blanket is enough to keep me toasty, but on the rare occasion that it gets real cold (below about -15°c)…

It's the insulation. While it depends on the location and geography, I'd wager that American homes are probably less well insulated than Swedish homes because they didn't have to be. That contrasts quite a bit with Swedish home standards, which have long been built more air-tight and with considerably better insulated even if they're of comparable age. This has been true for decades, became even more stark in the 198…

Responding to this and more generally to everyone mentioning insulation: I'm not saying that insulation is irrelevant, but when I say it fades out at low temps, I mean that if I put my hand over the forced-air duct it feels at best maybe a tiny bit warmer than the ambient air. (Which together with the forced-air circulation makes the room feel even colder, even if the temp is technically going up, but that's more a complaint about forced air, not heat pumps.) Insulation problems would mean I'm running it more and I'm paying more to heat the place than I might with better insulation. But insulation problems aren't what's causing the emitted air to feel cold.

Also, as noted, I'm sure part of it is that they gave me a heat pump that's rated to 5°C or whatever instead of -15. Probably because they expect that everyone around here has a backup heating system, and it doesn't get Sweden-cold (or Chicago-cold, for that matter) in this area. Cool cool, but that just reinforces the message that heat pumps can't hack it and if you're buying a heat pump system you really need to also buy a second system—which may not be entirely true but there's other people on this very thread with a kind of dismissive "everyone knows" attitude regarding backup heating that fundamentally undermines the original message (which was my whole point).

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#435

Post by ericpauley »

SoftTalker wrote: post #408
neltnerb wrote: post #234

I've got to throw out an obvious explanation. A third of the country rents. Renters pay the utility bills. Landlords pay for appliance upgrades. Why would the landlord put any effort into upgrading appliances when the cost of not upgrading them is borne by the renters? I've never rented at a place where they didn't want to fix broken equipment with the cheapest possible replacement. And no renter would ever consider…

That doesn't square with the fact that new rentals are built with granite countertops and stainless-steel appliances. Tenants do shop around on the basis of amenities.

Sure, but those amenities are highly visible. Lots of units have a stainless dishwasher exterior, but most will still be the landlord-special plastic tub inside. Who is shopping around based on whether or not there’s a heat pump? I would consider myself relatively well-educated on this and still the heat/cooling source is an afterthought.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#436

Post by theoreticalmal »

mothballed wrote: post #429
steveBK123 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central air system with indoor blower & outdoor condenser generally don't come with pre-charged lines so self-install without certification isn't really an option in US.

I got my EPA 608 universal for free after 2 night of cramming and an online proctored test. Skillcat, I think they charge like $50 if you want a printed card, worth it to me because I wanted to be able to walk into supply houses and buy refrigerant.

I always wondered how difficult it was to do this. I’m really glad to know it’s possible

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#437

Post by mothballed »

theoreticalmal wrote: post #436
mothballed wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got my EPA 608 universal for free after 2 night of cramming and an online proctored test. Skillcat, I think they charge like $50 if you want a printed card, worth it to me because I wanted to be able to walk into supply houses and buy refrigerant.

I always wondered how difficult it was to do this. I’m really glad to know it’s possible

Getting the 608 is mostly rote memorization and the only thing required at the federal level. On the state level if you want a trade license that generally takes 4 years, but where I live residential owner-builder doesn't need it.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#438

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

card_zero wrote: post #139
jcalvinowens wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The radiators might make you feel warmer despite not actually making the air in the room warmer: the black body radiation from the big warm radiators affects your perception of warmth in a not insignificant way.

Seems to me that making people feel warmer is the objective, and making the air warmer is not.

I have a gas furnace and infrared heating panels (glassheat). The panels make you feel warm when you're standing in their path but they are no where near as comfortable as furnace heated air.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#439

Post by JeremyPOsborne »

twothamendment wrote: post #121
ssuds wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wrote a big thread yesterday responding to someone with similar concerns to yours ( https://bsky.app/profile/shreyassudhakar.com/post/3m3w3nra2h... ). Copying it here if it's helpful to other folks. FWIW, the challenges you are facing seem to be grounded in bad design and application, which happens more than it should and really sucks. We need to move the bar much higher for the contractors installing heat pum…

I'm in Northwest Montana. My ground source heat pump doesn't struggle until the highs outside are -20F (actual, not wind-chill). I have the backup heat strip, but the breaker is off. I don't know when it would turn on, I just wanted to know it wouldn't without me knowing it.

Ground source is often the only choice here. While air source can technically work well down to these temperatures, much of the available equipment doesn't suit some homes.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#440

Post by lotsofpulp »

tatersolid wrote: post #431
lotsofpulp wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So gas hash higher reliability and is cheap for the times you need heat the most, whereas heat pumps might not work and are not cheap at the times you need them the most? I’ve had a gas furnace keep me and the water heated multiple times in a cold weather power outage.

How did you run the fans on your gas furnace without electric power? If you have a backup generator, is it too small for your AC in the summer?

Gas generator. I think it would be too small for my air conditioner in the summer (5 ton).

I would never use the generator in the summer though, doesn’t get that hot in the Pacific Northwest.

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