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Harnessing America's heat pump moment

heatpumped.org

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Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#101

Post by Loughla »

doctorhandshake wrote: post #98
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A heat pump just makes no sense whatsoever for me in my northeast town. The electric bill alone would outpace the old propane bill, not to mention installation. And it won't even work during some of the coldest winter weeks when you _really_ need it to work. Maybe I would consider it if I was in, like, Nevada or somewhere.

The notion that heat pumps don’t work at low temperatures hasn’t been true for years. I think you may be surprised to find that just about any heat pump you look at has good efficiency down to very low temperatures.

Define low temperatures.

Mine struggles if it gets below 30, and might as well not exist below 10. They're not great at low temps.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#102

Post by doctorhandshake »

ssuds wrote: post #76
blahedo wrote: post #33

People are reluctant to install them because they don't work as well as the good old boilers we'd be replacing. I'm not saying they can't, and I'm not saying that there are zero models out there that work. But in practice, a lot of us that have interacted with heat pumps have the specific experience that they get anemic as the temperature goes down and eventually become unable to do much of anything. I live in the mi…

I just wrote a big thread yesterday responding to someone with similar concerns to yours ( https://bsky.app/profile/shreyassudhakar.com/post/3m3w3nra2h... ). Copying it here if it's helpful to other folks. FWIW, the challenges you are facing seem to be grounded in bad design and application, which happens more than it should and really sucks. We need to move the bar much higher for the contractors installing heat pum…

This. I had 12 contractors come out for an estimate. I insisted to each that I would only consider estimates accompanied by a Manual J (aka show your work). I got 4 estimates with a manual J, and one of them the vendor said ‘despite that the math says you need a 4 ton outdoor unit, I’m giving you two,’ and refused to budge on that.

I went with a vendor who did the math and sized accordingly and my system works great - great comfort year round and very low energy usage.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#103

Post by DazWilkin »

I live in a community in the Pacific Northwest that was built in 2018 and (almost) every home (22/23) has (Carrier) heat pumps; for some unknown reason, the other has heated floors.

Many of us are proponents of heat pumps thanks to reduced costs and emissions *but* we've not had a generally good experience possibly (!) as a result of bad installation and definitely due to limited numbers of indoor heads (if I close my main bedroom door, the rest of my upper floor has no heating/cooling).

There's always someone in the community frustrated that their house is too cold/hot, that the condensation drains are blocked and water is running down an interior wall, that an indoor head or the condenser is having problems, or that there's unexplained coolant leak.

People moving into the community are inheriting issues with at least 2 homes having to augment/replace the system. To save breaking into the walls, this often necessitates putting the power, coolant and drainage lines on the outside of the house and then boxing the result.

We're saving money on monthly bills (probably; we don't have a comp) but many of us have spent quite some $$$ on maintenance and replacement equipment.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#104

Post by TimTheTinker »

switchbak wrote: post #93
TimTheTinker wrote: post #71

Nearly 2 years ago, we had a small tornado come through, taking out our electricity for a week. During that time, it was snowy and the outdoor temperature was well below freezing (it reached about -10°C (12°F) at night). Keeping my family warm was a real struggle that week. The next spring, I went to Costco and bought a big tri-power generator and wired up a generator interlock on the electric panel. Now if we lose p…

Don't you still need a generator to run the blower and the logic on the furnace? I mean, obviously a much lower power load, but wouldn't a generator still be necessary?

Of course. My point was that unlike my natural gas furnace + blower, a heat pump would be more than what my portable generator could handle.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#105

Post by prlambert »

switchbak wrote: post #89
prlambert wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is actually the worst – when open minded people get a heat pump for "the right reasons" and then have buyer's remorse. Completely backfires the transition. Do you have a ducted or ductless heat pump? Sounds like ducted, and if so that might be part of it too. The air cools down in the ductwork and if that's not accounted for - i.e. you reuse ductwork that was meant for a furnace – you run into issues like th…

Hi Paul - I'm a big fan of Quilt from Vancouver Island. It seems to me that you're helping to close the loop on some of the quality concerns that the parent commenter has. Inappropriate sizing/installation and poor product selection seem like common issues from HVAC installers that aren't particularly well versed on heat pumps. Wishing you continued success, and that hopefully it'll be available in Canada at some poi…

Thank you! Yes, that is the hope. And what a blast from the past :) Hope you are well

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#106

Post by crgwbr »

doctorhandshake wrote: post #98
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A heat pump just makes no sense whatsoever for me in my northeast town. The electric bill alone would outpace the old propane bill, not to mention installation. And it won't even work during some of the coldest winter weeks when you _really_ need it to work. Maybe I would consider it if I was in, like, Nevada or somewhere.

The notion that heat pumps don’t work at low temperatures hasn’t been true for years. I think you may be surprised to find that just about any heat pump you look at has good efficiency down to very low temperatures.

That’s true, but still doesn’t always make heat pumps the most cost effective choice to operate. For example, last winter I paid an average of $0.24/kWh for electricity vs $0.05/kWh for natural gas. Even if a heat pump had a perfect 4.0 COP all winter, gas would be ~15% cheaper. Electricity prices really need to come down before it will be viable for everyone.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#107

Post by darth_avocado »

ssuds wrote: post #96
darth_avocado wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in California, I have two heat pumps installed. I can sum up the problems as follows: 1. They are EXPENSIVE. The equipment itself isn’t that expensive tbh but installation is pretty expensive. The government subsidies have made sure that the contractors jack up their own prices by as much. 2. I end up paying more in utilities because electricity is very expensive and heat pumps aren’t nearly as good at heating in…

I wrote an op-ed in the SF Chronicle a few months ago about electricity costs in California holding back electrification, it's a real challenge: https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/heat-p... That said, I've found that in most cases (assuming you're on the right electric rate plan, that's a whole other conversation, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42763695 ), most homeowners in california ac…

> most homeowners in california actually see operating cost parity or a slight decrease, even with super expensive electricity

But you’re missing my first point though, installing a heat pump system comes with a price tag of tens of thousands of dollars. I’m not doing that if my operating cost is at parity or a slight decrease. It’s the same reason people are no longer incentivized to install solar. And to add to that, installing heat pumps also come with additional costs that can range anywhere from a few thousand dollars to replace the main electrical panel to tens of thousands of dollars for a full electrical upgrade if your house is on knob and tube wiring to reduce fire risks.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#108

Post by doctorhandshake »

Loughla wrote: post #101
doctorhandshake wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that heat pumps don’t work at low temperatures hasn’t been true for years. I think you may be surprised to find that just about any heat pump you look at has good efficiency down to very low temperatures.

Define low temperatures. Mine struggles if it gets below 30, and might as well not exist below 10. They're not great at low temps.

I’m not sure what yours is but it doesn’t sound appropriate to your application.

Mitsubishi hyper heat is indicative of a contemporary inverter design - 100% efficiency to -5f: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/mythbusters-heat-...

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#109

Post by doctorhandshake »

crgwbr wrote: post #106
doctorhandshake wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that heat pumps don’t work at low temperatures hasn’t been true for years. I think you may be surprised to find that just about any heat pump you look at has good efficiency down to very low temperatures.

That’s true, but still doesn’t always make heat pumps the most cost effective choice to operate. For example, last winter I paid an average of $0.24/kWh for electricity vs $0.05/kWh for natural gas. Even if a heat pump had a perfect 4.0 COP all winter, gas would be ~15% cheaper. Electricity prices really need to come down before it will be viable for everyone.

Yeah. Sadly the trend does not seem to be heading that direction what with the current admin’s … policies and the whole … AI … thing.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#110

Post by crote »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #77

All this push to electrify everything makes me nervous, as it effectively centralizes a lever that someone evil enough could use to coerce the general public in unsavory ways. I'm doubly suspicious of areas that combine mass-electrification with reducing availability of the most reliable alternate source of electricity (i.e. generators). California in particular is pushing to make generators increasingly hard to obta…

What makes you believe the same doesn't already apply to natural gas, or petrol?

Besides, coercing the general public like that generally doesn't end well: people tend to get annoyed when their basic needs of survival aren't being met - especially if it is a deliberate choice. The people in power will be gone within days.

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