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Harnessing America's heat pump moment

heatpumped.org

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Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#51

Post by maxerickson »

blahedo wrote: post #33

People are reluctant to install them because they don't work as well as the good old boilers we'd be replacing. I'm not saying they can't, and I'm not saying that there are zero models out there that work. But in practice, a lot of us that have interacted with heat pumps have the specific experience that they get anemic as the temperature goes down and eventually become unable to do much of anything. I live in the mi…

How is the insulation in the house? Poor insulation and an undersized system will be a bad experience regardless of the heat source.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#52

Post by quickthrowman »

It’s very hard to say whether heat pumps are cheaper than NG for heating. I pay about $0.25 per 100k BTUs which is about 3kWh. 3kWh costs about 50 cents. As long as the COP is above 2, it’s cheaper to run the heat pump.

Once you factor in an electrician and pipefitter for installing a heat pump, plus the cost of the heat pump, refrigerant, and furnace coil, I’d imagine you lose money in the long run.

If you then additionally include the strain on the grid from all these new data centers without enough generation capacity, I’ll stick with natural gas for heating air and water.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#53

Post by thinkcontext »

themafia wrote: post #2

[flagged]

You see this opinion a lot in the US, probably a result of Fox and its ilk. As the article mentions, somehow Nordic countries and Canada manage to use them. There's been good uptake in places like Maine which is good news.

Its true retrofits are a tough sell and natural gas is really cheap here. It would help if the US took insulation more seriously. But for someone with oil or electric resistance its definitely a big win.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#54

Post by prlambert »

blahedo wrote: post #33

People are reluctant to install them because they don't work as well as the good old boilers we'd be replacing. I'm not saying they can't, and I'm not saying that there are zero models out there that work. But in practice, a lot of us that have interacted with heat pumps have the specific experience that they get anemic as the temperature goes down and eventually become unable to do much of anything. I live in the mi…

Yes this is actually the worst – when open minded people get a heat pump for "the right reasons" and then have buyer's remorse. Completely backfires the transition. Do you have a ducted or ductless heat pump? Sounds like ducted, and if so that might be part of it too. The air cools down in the ductwork and if that's not accounted for - i.e. you reuse ductwork that was meant for a furnace – you run into issues like this. And you also need a cold climate heat pump.

(disclosure/transparency I'm the founder of Quilt, a ductless heat pump manufacturer)

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#55

Post by joshvm »

themafia wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Below freezing is a concern that everyone has in Northern Europe, particularly Scandinavia which has very high per-capita adoption. The units might be harder to find in the US, but they definitely exist.

If you can afford it, and have the land access, you could install a ground-source pump which should benefit from more stable temperatures. As with all heating/cooling, these systems work best if your house is well insulated. That's a much bigger problem in the UK, and I imagine the US too, especially in places where solar gain requires a huge amount of A/C usage.

[1] https://www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(23)00351-3

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#56

Post by bluGill »

prlambert wrote: post #45
nsxwolf wrote: post #22

When I needed a new air conditioner I looked into heat pumps. 3x the price.

That seems really weird, the only real difference is a reversing valve that costs a couple bucks. A heat pump is an AC, it just can be run backwards to produce heating as well. In cooling it's literally the same thing.

I know, but I don't make the price lists.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#57

Post by darth_avocado »

galoisscobi wrote: post #3

> we’re waiting on people Right on. I have a heat pump water heater and a heat pump heating system in my HVAC. Getting those installed felt like swimming upstream. Most contractors would try to dissuade me from them. Luckily, I found a contractor who was skilled and knowledgeable about heat pumps and rebates (back when govt thought climate change was real). Very happy with my heat pump tech.

I’m in California, I have two heat pumps installed. I can sum up the problems as follows:

1. They are EXPENSIVE. The equipment itself isn’t that expensive tbh but installation is pretty expensive. The government subsidies have made sure that the contractors jack up their own prices by as much.

2. I end up paying more in utilities because electricity is very expensive and heat pumps aren’t nearly as good at heating in the winters as old fashioned gas furnaces when it comes to the cost.

I made the massive investment because I could and I eventually want my house to run completely on rooftop solar as a way to reduce my carbon footprint. But the cost is nowhere near mass market adoption price range.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#59

Post by bluGill »

joshvm wrote: post #55
themafia wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Below freezing is a concern that everyone has in Northern Europe, particularly Scandinavia which has very high per-capita adoption. The units might be harder to find in the US, but they definitely exist. If you can afford it, and have the land access, you could install a ground-source pump which should benefit from more stable temperatures. As with all heating/cooling, these systems work best if your house is well in…

Northern Europe tends to have a mild climate in the places where people live. The Northern US is significantly south, yet gets significantly colder winters. There are places in Europe that get worse than the Northern US - but they are places where few people live and so not normally what you are talking about when talking about Europe.

Though good heat pumps are hard to find in the northern US. Most installers only know of gas furnace + A/C, and don't even try to install anything else. As you get farther south in the US heat pumps become common, but there it rarely gets much below freezing and so they don't need backup heating systems at all.

Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment

#60

Post by WorldMaker »

blahedo wrote: post #33

People are reluctant to install them because they don't work as well as the good old boilers we'd be replacing. I'm not saying they can't, and I'm not saying that there are zero models out there that work. But in practice, a lot of us that have interacted with heat pumps have the specific experience that they get anemic as the temperature goes down and eventually become unable to do much of anything. I live in the mi…

The strength of your heat pump shouldn't be outside surface temperature, but underground aquifer temperature. Those two temperatures are related but not as directly as they seem. A good aquifer in certain cavernous regions of the US might stay about 55 degF year round, regardless of outside surface temperature. 55 degF is still below what a lot of people want their home to be year round so a heat pump still has to supplement heat somehow in winters (or radiators or what have you), but a "free" boost to 55 degF is still a better starting place than 20 or 40 degF outside temperature.

I don't think latitude is a factor in how efficient a heat pump you can find, I think the type geography under you feet is (probably where "interior" regions probably have more luck than coastal regions), combined with how well regulated or unregulated your area's aquifer generally is (things like nearby wells and industrial water dumping will effect aquifer levels and temperatures). (Maybe not enough heat pump proponents realize that you only have good, cheap heat pumps if you have a powerful EPA and other Water protection groups fighting the good fight in your region.)

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