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Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

volts.wtf

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Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#231
post #68

Personally speaking, having just bought an Ioniq 5 and installing solar at home what I see as the near future improvement is adding V2L functionality, which I can hook up to the generator input of my solar inverter, essentially adding another 60kWh buffer to my grid storage. Considering how expensive residential batteries are and how quickly EVs depreciate, I think soon it'll be cheaper to get a used EV as a cheap so…

Residential batteries are not that expensive anymore, at least not all of them. That's a misconception I also held until a few years ago ;-) My first 14.3 kWh pack cost about 2800$ DDP from China, delivered 03/2023. For that one I did calculate how long it took for amortization, which I projected at about 5 years. The second, identical pack was delivered 08/2024 and cost 2000$ DDP. Since we got an EV that's drawing a…

I would take that further and say that residential solar without batteries has been proven to be a bad solution. Solar with batteries allows utilities and consumers to schedule when power can be sent to the grid. California utilities consider solar without batteries a PITA, and incentive structures have changed to reflect that shift in policy.

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/distributed-energy-reso...

https://enphase.com/blog/homeowners/understanding-nem-30-and...

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran the numbers on that, and it just doesn't work. Stone has rather lousy specific heat capacity (less than 1kJ/kg/K, compared to 4.2kJ for water). A typical house in Midwest needs around 22,000kWh (7.913×10^10 J) over the winter (75 million BTU - https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=57321 ). If we assume the delta of 550 degrees (600 down to 50), you'll need: 7.913×10^10 J / (550K * 1000J kg^-1 K^-1) =…

Your decimal point slipped three places in that last calculation; the result is too high by a factor of 1000. A more worthy criticism is that the pile for just a single house is too small and would cool off too quickly.

I don't believe it did? Delta of 550 degrees Kelvin multiplied by 1000J per kg per Kelvin.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe stainless steel for the heating elements and busbars? Cheaper than nichrome and copper. I feel like mild steel would not last long in practice. Copper plated MIG welding wire might be good enough? Probably want to think about thermal expansion also, especially configured as "walls", and with skins considerably colder than cores.

Austin Vernon claims they have a very cheap resistor material for Standard Thermal but hasn't said what it is. I look forward to hearing that detail when it leaks out. A good chunk of their work while in stealth was on the resistors, I understand.

I think I've shown above that you can make the resistor material itself almost arbitrarily cheap, calculating for example how you can get 40 kilowatts out of 9.3 grams of aluminum foil, and showing that with more busbars you can use even less resistor material than that. Aluminum itself wouldn't work for Standard Thermal's target temperatures, but you can make an arbitrarily thin foil out of any metal, supporting it as a thin film on an insulating ceramic such as porcelain if necessary. Copper, gold, silver, mild steel, nickel, nichrome, other stainless, titanium, platinum, and platinum/iridium, could all be made to work, and in no case would the material cost be significant. Metal film resistors supported on ceramic are being used to convert electrical energy into heat in probably every electronic device in your house.

And the old standby for resistive heating of giant piles of dirt, for example to bake it into carborundum, isn't a metal at all—it's plain old carbon, which you can if necessary bake in situ. Carborundum itself can also work, though it's not malleable, and controlling its resistivity can be tricky.

MIG welding wire is an interesting possibility.

The main potential obstacle, I think, is the manufacturing cost, and as sandy234590 was saying, potentially durability in use. Vernon said resistor durability had been one of their major problems; I'd think that sand would impose less stress on the resistors than generic dirt, but, with quartz in particular, you could greatly reduce the risk by not crossing the quartz dunting temperature at 573°: https://digitalfire.com/glossary/quartz+inversion That obviously isn't an option for Standard Thermal, but it would be completely viable for household climate control, just requiring somewhat more sand.

Sandy points out, implicitly, that mild steel such as the baling wire I suggested typically does not last long at high temperatures. But that's because it oxidizes. The same vulnerability is present in most metals, though not silver, gold, platinum, and platinum/iridium alloys, and only to a limited extent for nickel, nichrome, and other stainlesses. That oxidation can only happen in an oxidizing atmosphere; the thin iron ballast wires in Nernst lamps last indefinitely because they're sealed in a reducing (hydrogen) atmosphere. As I said, I think you can maintain a reducing atmosphere in the sand pore space by just including a little charcoal, which will scavenge any oxygen that gets close to the heating elements when they're hot, and may even be able to reduce any oxide that does form, at the cost of carbon monoxide emission.

If the atmosphere inside the sand is oxidizing, you'd probably want to either use something that won't be damaged by oxidization, such as gold or nichrome, or use a very thick heating element such as carbon so that it will have an adequate service life despite the oxidation. Most stainless steels will start to oxidize at a few hundred degrees, even though they're fine at room temperature.

(The main heating element in Nernst lamps, cubic zirconia, was also immune to oxidation, but it had some other drawbacks; for example, it needed to be preheated into its conductive range with a platinum preheat wire, and its rather aggressive negative temperature coefficient of resistance made it prone to thermal runaway when operated on a constant-voltage source—thus the iron ballast wire.)

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#234
post #134
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The low cost of the modules themselves has led to the suggestion of cost optimized DC-coupled PV systems being used to directly drive resistive heaters. The cost per unit of thermal energy in a cost optimized system moderate scale system (> residential, Low cost modules allow one to do away with things like optimally tilted modules and single axis tracking. The modules can also be tightly packed, reducing mounting an…

Is it worth using heat pumps in this setup (in addition to resistive elements)? I understand they can't reach the absolute temperature of resistive heating, but from an efficiency POV for the first few tens of degrees they are much more efficient.

Efficiency allows you to use less solar panels, but more solar panels are cheaper than a heat pump. I think the ratio is about 5:1 at this point and widening.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#235
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every generation of the production Nissan Leaf has used lithium batteries. AFAIK no modern (~post-2000) mass-produced (>10k units sold) EV has ever used NiMH or lead-acid batteries. Edit: Checking Wikipedia to verify my information, I found out that Nissan actually sold a lithium-battery EV in 1997 to comply with the same 90s CARB zero-emissions vehicle mandate that gave us the GM EV-1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

EVs no, but I think some Toyota hybrids (which are of course not even PHEVs) still use NiMH. Toyota tends to be very tight-lipped about their batteries and their sizes (or rather, lack thereof).

Early Hybrids used NiMH because Chevron was holding on to a lot of the patents around using Lithium Ion for the purpose IIRC.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulatory costs and waste disposal are not significance cost centers for nuclear, at least as far as I can tell from any cost breakdowns. One doesn't need super high quality welding and concrete pours becuase of regulations as much as the basic desire to have a properly engineered solution that lasts long enough to avoid costly repairs. Take for example this recent analysis on how to make the AP1000 competitive: htt…

> let's hear how to change One approach would be to reduce the size of the containment building by greatly reducing the volume of steam it must hold. This would be done by attaching Filtered Containment Venting Systems (FCVS) that strip most of the radioactive elements from the vented steam in case of a large accident. The containment building is a significant cost driver, costing about as much as the nuclear island…

Interesting! Would that require any regulation change?

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#237
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would require a technological breakthrough that we have not yet imagined. Maybe, but not necessarily. The necessary breakthrough might have been high-temperature superconducting magnets, in which case not only has it been imagined, but it has already occurred, and we're just waiting for the engineering atop that breakthrough to progress enough to demonstrate a working prototype (the magnets have been demonstrate…

High temperature superconducting magnets are not a panacea for the problems with DT fusion. Those issues follow from limits on power/area at the first wall, and the needed thickness of the first wall; these ensure DT reactors will have low volumetric power density, regardless of the confinement scheme used. With HTSC magnets, a tokamak much smaller than ITER could be built, but ITER is so horrifically bad that one ca…

> needed thickness of the first wall

I meant, needed thickness of the tritium breeding blanket.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#238
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And secondly what he probalby meant was […] If they can't precisely convey the intended meaning in written words, they shouldn't be a journalist.

Journalists write for an audiance which normally gets it. You just might not be one of them. And no no one needs to write everything so that everyone always gets it. I for example do not write blog articles for kids. I also don't write very technical blog articles for people outside of tech.

> Journalists write for an audiance which normally gets it.

That's a bullshit justification. "It's factually wrong, but that's okay, the true audience knows what the author means anyway." Then why write it at all? It makes no sense. Stop making up excuses for clueless journalists.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let's hear how to change One approach would be to reduce the size of the containment building by greatly reducing the volume of steam it must hold. This would be done by attaching Filtered Containment Venting Systems (FCVS) that strip most of the radioactive elements from the vented steam in case of a large accident. The containment building is a significant cost driver, costing about as much as the nuclear island…

Interesting! Would that require any regulation change?

I believe the NRC currently requires that the containment remain leak-free for 24 hours after a design basis accident.

Now, I have not checked if shorter lived radioisotopes would ruin the idea I'm suggesting. It's possible.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your decimal point slipped three places in that last calculation; the result is too high by a factor of 1000. A more worthy criticism is that the pile for just a single house is too small and would cool off too quickly.

I don't believe it did? Delta of 550 degrees Kelvin multiplied by 1000J per kg per Kelvin.

7.913e10 / ( 5.5e2 * 1.0e3 ) = 1.438e5, not 1.438e8

When doing calculations like this I just fire up a lisp and enter the thing to be calculated as lisp form.

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